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interesting and makes good sense---from a (traditional) Christian theological perspective---that the virgin birth of Christ the "second Adam" (the "first Adam" himself was a kind of "virgin" birth being created "from the dust of the earth" through the power of God) represents a clean break from the "normal" chain of inherited guilt which is part of our "fallen" human nature to produce Someone "naturally" without sin.
OTOH, (and excuse me if this has already been brought up), the virgin birth may at the same time be just as easily be seen as a great miracle, the first of many from turning water to wine, walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead, and ultimately returning to life after being killed which "prove" (to Christians at least) that Jesse bar Joseph is not simply a carpenter's son from Galilee with rather controversial ideas that "comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable", an inspired sage and moralist who taught peace and love, or a "cool dude" that had some good suggestions we may (or may not) relate to and want to put into practice in some way. instead Christians believe that Jesus the Christ IS in fact the "Son of God" Who has POWER shown forth in those various miracles to do what anyone else ever could or can and because of that power has AUTHORITY to command us who desire to be His followers to believe (and more importantly do) certain things. OTOH if the virgin birth is too much to swallow, then likely all the other miracles like those already mentioned may prove to be equally improbable.
for those who for whatever reason don't believe in this or any other of those miracles, then the whole of Christian belief becomes either a charming sometimes edifying (or sometimes just plain silly) fable or a series of lies built upon lies for apparently some nefarious purpose will no doubt come to different conclusions and beliefs. ultimately, we all are free to make our choices in what and why we believe and how we live those beliefs---hopefully in humility, forgiveness, understanding, tolerance, and love of others (which oddly enough most Christians believe is a big part of what Jesus taught that His followers must do if they really believe in Him and He Who sent Him).
in the peace of Christ who Christians believe came into the world (maybe around this time) to love and forgive us and show us how to love and forgive others. Merry Christmas to all and (as "Tiny Tim" said,) "God bless us, EVERYONE".
Hi George. Absolutely the virgin birth is a great miracle. God becoming man by an act of His own Sovereign will in order to pay the penalty for our sins Himself so that all who believe in Christ Jesus can receive eternal life is, I would say, the greatest miracle of all.
Yes, unfortunately, and tragically, many consider the Bible to be merely a fable not to be believed. But we are called to give the gospel. The results are out of our hands. And it would be nice if more Christians actually lived the Christian way of life instead of simply giving a nod to God on Sundays. God leaves us here after salvation for the purpose of advancing spiritually, which most Christians never do.
May you and your family have a very Merry Christmas!!!
You ignore the fact that Isaiah 53 plainly states that the suffering servant would die for the sins of others.
He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. [V. 5]
The LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. [v.6]
He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due. [v.9]
But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. [v.10]
My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities. [v.11]
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. [v.12]
No matter who you argue the suffering servant to be in Isaiah 53, that chapter is heavy on substitutionary atonement. And if you argue the suffering servant to be Israel then you have an entire nation offering itself as a guilt offering and interceding for the sins of others.
But Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself. He claimed to be the one to whom Isaiah 53 referred. And Jesus, unlike sinful man, could die for the sins of others because He Himself knew no sin and had been appointed by God the Father to die on our behalf.
and the rest of it and the part the church doesn't want to deal with is the rest of the story..
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g] and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h] because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
and the rest of it and the part the church doesn't want to deal with is the rest of the story..
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g] and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h] because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.
Did the Suffering Servant have a long life and children?
Mike555 posted: [quote]
Quote:
No matter who you argue the suffering servant to be in Isaiah 53, that chapter is heavy on substitutionary atonement. And if you argue the suffering servant to be Israel then you have an entire nation offering itself as a guilt offering and interceding for the sins of others.
But Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself. He claimed to be the one to whom Isaiah 53 referred. And Jesus, unlike sinful man, could die for the sins of others because He Himself knew no sin and had been appointed by God the Father to die on our behalf.
RESPONSE:
Let’s look at what Isaiah is really saying.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
QUESTION:
Did Jesus have a long life and offspring? If not, Jesus clearly wasn't the Suffering Servant.
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
RESPONSE: Note whom Isaiah is saying the suffering servant is.
The "substitutionary atonement" story was started by Paul probably because Jesus' original followers didn't like the idea of Jesus being executed as an insurrectionist which Jesus was because he allowed his followers to believe he was the "Messiah" who would sit on the throne of Israel. (Interestingly, all the Messiah- candidates of Jesus' generation were killed by the Romans.
You ignore the fact that Isaiah 53 plainly states that the suffering servant would die for the sins of others.
He was pierced through for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. [V. 5]
The LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. [v.6]
He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due. [v.9]
But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. [v.10]
My Servant, will justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities. [v.11]
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. [v.12]
No matter who you argue the suffering servant to be in Isaiah 53, that chapter is heavy on substitutionary atonement. And if you argue the suffering servant to be Israel then you have an entire nation offering itself as a guilt offering and interceding for the sins of others.
But Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself. He claimed to be the one to whom Isaiah 53 referred. And Jesus, unlike sinful man, could die for the sins of others because He Himself knew no sin and had been appointed by God the Father to die on our behalf.
You are right Mike, I mean that I agree that some people do stand for other people. Israel has stood as a sacrifice all this time, and everyone with Israel the same fate. If you follow the God of Israel, then the world is going to try and kill you because you stand for God.
Are Jews a sacrifice that Gentiles should bring to the Lord?
Isaiah 66, a Gentile performing the duties of a priest by spending his own time and money to bring a Jew back to Israel on his back in the last days.
20And they shall bring all your brethrenfor an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Of course I believe Jesus was the suffering servant, I just don't think it ends there because it hasn't.
After Jesus died and went his way, Daniel speaks of another Anti-Christ to come, and this anti-Christ would be lawless and against the commandments of God.
I guess God also saw fit to crush all Jews because that is what happened as they alone stood as a representative of God being the only people who would follow God.
No other people have been crushed so bad, persecuted so bad as an example of what happens when you choose to follow God.
Mike, If you followed and loved the ways of God, you also become a suffering servant, and the world is going to try and kill you.
Israel has been persecuted and killed, and crushed for 2000 years, but this will not always be so, and Gentiles are already carrying Jews back to Israel on their backs to please God, and God tells us that the Jew himself is an offering that a Gentile is bound to present before the Lord.
RESPONSE:
Let’s look at what Isaiah is really saying.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
QUESTION:
Did Jesus have a long life and offspring? If not, Jesus clearly wasn't the Suffering Servant.
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
RESPONSE: Note whom Isaiah is saying the suffering servant is.
The "substitutionary atonement" story was started by Paul probably because Jesus' original followers didn't like the idea of Jesus being executed as an insurrectionist which Jesus was because he allowed his followers to believe he was the "Messiah" who would sit on the throne of Israel. (Interestingly, all the Messiah- candidates of Jesus' generation were killed by the Romans.
No, Isaiah is not referring to Israel as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.
Between Isaiah chapters 40 and 51 the servant of the Lord at times refers to the nation Israel, and at other times refers to an individual.
The servant of the Lord with reference to the nation Israel: Isa. 41:8-9; 42:19; 43:10; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20.
The servant of the Lord with reference to a righteous individual within the nation: Isa. 49:3, 5-7; 50:10.
The servant of the Lord in Isa. 49:3, despite being called 'Israel' cannot be the nation Israel since this servant is called to bring Jacob (the nation Israel) back to God [49:5]. Furthermore, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:7 is despised by the nation Israel. Therefore, once again, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:1-7 cannot be Israel. This is most likely a reference to the Messiah who is called Israel because He fulfills the function that the nation should have fulfilled. In His person and work the Messiah epitomizes the nation.
The servant of the Lord with unclear reference as to an individual or to the nation, but a strong case can be made for the individual interpretation: Isaiah 42:1; 44:1-2.
With regard to Isaiah 42, Targum Isaiah interprets it as being a reference to the Messiah.
ISAIAH 42 (BEN UZIEL) — 1 Behold, my servant, the Messiah, whom I bring, my chosen in whom one delights: as for my Word, I will put my Holy Spirit upon Him; He shall reveal my judgment unto the nations. 2 He shall not cry aloud, nor raise a clamour, and He shall not lift up His voice in the street. 3 The meek who are like a bruised reed He shall not break, and the poor who are as a glimmering wick with Him, He will not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not faint nor be weary, till He have established judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for His law. 5 Thus saith the God of eternity, who hath created the heavens and suspended them, who hath founded the earth, and hath given breath to its inhabitants, even to the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. 6 I, the Lord, I will make Thee to grow in truth, and will hold Thine hand, and I will direct Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the eyes of the house of Israel, who are blind to the law, to bring back their captivity from among the nations, where they are like prisoners, and to redeem them from the servi tude of the kingdoms being shut up as those that are bound in darkness. [Bolded mine]
So the Targum states that the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 is the Messiah. This recognizes the fact that not all references to the servant of the Lord referred to the nation.
However, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is said to be both blind and deaf, and is still blind and deaf while being led out of the Babylonian exile (Isaiah 43:8). This is quite a contrast from the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 opens blind eyes [v.7]. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is both blind and deaf. Two different servants of the Lord are being mentioned in Isaiah 42.
The most specific and clear references to the servant of the Lord as an individual are in Isaiah chapters 49 through the end of 53.
Nothing about Isaiah 53 fits with the suffering servant being the nation Israel which clearly refers to an individual. And as with Isaiah 42:1-7, Targum Isaiah interprets the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 52:13 which leads into Isaiah 53 as being the Messiah.
ISAIAH 52 (BEN UZIEL) 13 Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper. He shall be exalted and extolled, and He shall be very strong. 14 As the house of Israel anxiously hoped for Him many days, (which was poor among the nations; their appearance and their brightness being worse than that of the sons of men 15 Thus shall He scatter many nations; before Him kings shall keep silence: they shall put their hands upon their mouths, for that which had not been told them shall they see: and that which they had not heard shall they consider. [Bolded mine].
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself as recorded in Luke 22:37. As well, the apostle Philip taught Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch from Isaiah 53 as stated in Acts 8:26-35.
And no, Paul did not invent the ''substitutionary atonement'' ''story.'' Scholars recognize 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 to be what is referred to as a pre-Pauline tradition which goes back to the beginning of the church shortly after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
Last edited by Michael Way; 12-23-2017 at 04:38 PM..
The servant of the Lord with reference to the nation Israel: Isa. 41:8-9; 42:19; 43:10; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20.
The servant of the Lord with reference to a righteous individual within the nation: Isa. 49:3, 5-7; 50:10
The servant of the Lord with unclear reference as to an individual or to the nation, but a strong case can be made for the individual interpretation: Isaiah 42:1; 44:1-2.
RESPONSE: Since Isaiah used both terms it is reasonable to believe that Jacob is representative of Israel. Whatever the case the “Suffering Servant” cannot be Jesus since quite clearly it is stated that the Suffering Servant has a long life and many children. That rules out Jesus.
Mike posted
Quote:
With regard to Isaiah 42, Targum Isaiah interprets it as being a reference to the Messiah.
RESPONSE: Anyone can have an opinion and “interpret” it however they like as long as it be recognized that it cannot be Jesus who had a relatively short life and no offspring.
Mike 555 posted:
Quote:
And no, Paul did not invent the ''substitutionary atonement'' ''story.'' Scholars recognize 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 to be what is referred to as a pre-Pauline tradition which goes back to the beginning of the church shortly after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
RESPONSE: Then please present a "scholar's" reference predating Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which claims that Jesus death was a “substitutionary atonement.” Or is this an assertion without evidence?
No, Isaiah is not referring to Israel as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.
Between Isaiah chapters 40 and 51 the servant of the Lord at times refers to the nation Israel, and at other times refers to an individual.
The servant of the Lord with reference to the nation Israel: Isa. 41:8-9; 42:19; 43:10; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20.
The servant of the Lord with reference to a righteous individual within the nation: Isa. 49:3, 5-7; 50:10.
The servant of the Lord in Isa. 49:3, despite being called 'Israel' cannot be the nation Israel since this servant is called to bring Jacob (the nation Israel) back to God [49:5]. Furthermore, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:7 is despised by the nation Israel. Therefore, once again, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:1-7 cannot be Israel. This is most likely a reference to the Messiah who is called Israel because He fulfills the function that the nation should have fulfilled. In His person and work the Messiah epitomizes the nation.
The servant of the Lord with unclear reference as to an individual or to the nation, but a strong case can be made for the individual interpretation: Isaiah 42:1; 44:1-2.
With regard to Isaiah 42, Targum Isaiah interprets it as being a reference to the Messiah.
ISAIAH 42 (BEN UZIEL) — 1 Behold, my servant, the Messiah, whom I bring, my chosen in whom one delights: as for my Word, I will put my Holy Spirit upon Him; He shall reveal my judgment unto the nations. 2 He shall not cry aloud, nor raise a clamour, and He shall not lift up His voice in the street. 3 The meek who are like a bruised reed He shall not break, and the poor who are as a glimmering wick with Him, He will not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not faint nor be weary, till He have established judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for His law. 5 Thus saith the God of eternity, who hath created the heavens and suspended them, who hath founded the earth, and hath given breath to its inhabitants, even to the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. 6 I, the Lord, I will make Thee to grow in truth, and will hold Thine hand, and I will direct Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the eyes of the house of Israel, who are blind to the law, to bring back their captivity from among the nations, where they are like prisoners, and to redeem them from the servi tude of the kingdoms being shut up as those that are bound in darkness. [Bolded mine]
So the Targum states that the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 is the Messiah. This recognizes the fact that not all references to the servant of the Lord referred to the nation.
However, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is said to be both blind and deaf, and is still blind and deaf while being led out of the Babylonian exile (Isaiah 43:8). This is quite a contrast from the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 opens blind eyes [v.7]. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is both blind and deaf. Two different servants of the Lord are being mentioned in Isaiah 42.
The most specific and clear references to the servant of the Lord as an individual are in Isaiah chapters 49 through the end of 53.
Nothing about Isaiah 53 fits with the suffering servant being the nation Israel which clearly refers to an individual. And as with Isaiah 42:1-7, Targum Isaiah interprets the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 52:13 which leads into Isaiah 53 as being the Messiah.
ISAIAH 52 (BEN UZIEL) 13 Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper. He shall be exalted and extolled, and He shall be very strong. 14 As the house of Israel anxiously hoped for Him many days, (which was poor among the nations; their appearance and their brightness being worse than that of the sons of men 15 Thus shall He scatter many nations; before Him kings shall keep silence: they shall put their hands upon their mouths, for that which had not been told them shall they see: and that which they had not heard shall they consider. [Bolded mine].
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself as recorded in Luke 22:37. As well, the apostle Philip taught Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch from Isaiah 53 as stated in Acts 8:26-35.
And no, Paul did not invent the ''substitutionary atonement'' ''story.'' Scholars recognize 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 to be what is referred to as a pre-Pauline tradition which goes back to the beginning of the church shortly after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristotles child
Mike555 posted:
RESPONSE: Since Isaiah used both terms it is reasonable to believe that Jacob is representative of Israel. Whatever the case the “Suffering Servant” cannot be Jesus since quite clearly it is stated that the Suffering Servant has a long life and many children. That rules out Jesus.
Mike posted
RESPONSE: Anyone can have an opinion and “interpret” it however they like as long as it be recognized that it cannot be Jesus who had a relatively short life and no offspring.
Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus. Jesus was resurrected and as a result of His resurrection those who believe in Him become children of God (John 1:12). Jesus was dead but is alive forevermore.
Rev. 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,18]and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Quote:
Mike 555 posted:
RESPONSE: Then please present a "scholar's" reference predating Paul’s 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 which claims that Jesus death was a “substitutionary atonement.” Or is this an assertion without evidence?
Again, Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is by Paul's own admission information about Jesus that he received and was delivering to the Corinthians. Scholars refer to this as a pre-Pauline creed.
Scholar Gary Habermas on 1 Corinthians 15:3 as a pre-Pauline creed.
''1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is widely recognized by New Testament scholars as a statement of belief (creed) that was systematized long before Paul quoted it. If so, it represents the earliest historical account of Jesus’ resurrection, and goes back to the eyewitnesses themselves. Gary Habermas comments on the very early date of this creed, which even skeptical scholars acknowledge.''
''Do critical scholars agree on the date of this pre-Pauline creed? Even radical scholars like Gerd Lüdemann think that “the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion . . . no later than three years after the death of Jesus.” Similarly, Michael Goulder contends that Paul’s testimony about the resurrection appearances “goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion.” '' https://greatcloud.wordpress.com/201...d-of-1-cor-15/
Bart Ehrman:
There are solid reasons for thinking that Paul understood Jesus to have died recently. I can start with that basic confession of faith that Paul lays out in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5, a confession that was passed along to him by those who came before, as he himself states: ''For I delivered over to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, and that he was buried; and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures and that he appeared to Cephas and then to the twelve.''
Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth, Bart D. Ehrman, p. 249.
Ehrman then states in the next sentence that this is an ancient creed. Later on in the book Ehrman comments:
The apostle Paul knew several of the people who passed along such stories, as we have seen, as he mentions traditions that he inherited from believers before him (1 Corinthians 11:22-24; 15:3-5) and names several of Jesus' close intimates as personal aquaintances: the disciples Cephas and John, along with Jesus' brother James.
Did Jesus Exist? pp. 260-261.
Now that's all the time I'm going to take explaining all this to you. Isaiah 53 clearly refers to the Messiah, which as it happens, is Jesus. Again, Jesus Himself said it referred to Him as did the apostle Phillip. I've already provided the scripture references. If you are unwilling to accept that fact, then simply go on not believing it.
And I've provided enough information about 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 as a pre-Pauline creed. You can do your own research with regard to it.
No, Isaiah is not referring to Israel as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53.
Between Isaiah chapters 40 and 51 the servant of the Lord at times refers to the nation Israel, and at other times refers to an individual.
The servant of the Lord with reference to the nation Israel: Isa. 41:8-9; 42:19; 43:10; 44:21; 45:4; 48:20.
The servant of the Lord with reference to a righteous individual within the nation: Isa. 49:3, 5-7; 50:10.
The servant of the Lord in Isa. 49:3, despite being called 'Israel' cannot be the nation Israel since this servant is called to bring Jacob (the nation Israel) back to God [49:5]. Furthermore, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:7 is despised by the nation Israel. Therefore, once again, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 49:1-7 cannot be Israel. This is most likely a reference to the Messiah who is called Israel because He fulfills the function that the nation should have fulfilled. In His person and work the Messiah epitomizes the nation.
The servant of the Lord with unclear reference as to an individual or to the nation, but a strong case can be made for the individual interpretation: Isaiah 42:1; 44:1-2.
With regard to Isaiah 42, Targum Isaiah interprets it as being a reference to the Messiah.
ISAIAH 42 (BEN UZIEL) — 1 Behold, my servant, the Messiah, whom I bring, my chosen in whom one delights: as for my Word, I will put my Holy Spirit upon Him; He shall reveal my judgment unto the nations. 2 He shall not cry aloud, nor raise a clamour, and He shall not lift up His voice in the street. 3 The meek who are like a bruised reed He shall not break, and the poor who are as a glimmering wick with Him, He will not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not faint nor be weary, till He have established judgment in the earth; and the isles shall wait for His law. 5 Thus saith the God of eternity, who hath created the heavens and suspended them, who hath founded the earth, and hath given breath to its inhabitants, even to the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. 6 I, the Lord, I will make Thee to grow in truth, and will hold Thine hand, and I will direct Thee, and give Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the eyes of the house of Israel, who are blind to the law, to bring back their captivity from among the nations, where they are like prisoners, and to redeem them from the servi tude of the kingdoms being shut up as those that are bound in darkness. [Bolded mine]
So the Targum states that the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 is the Messiah. This recognizes the fact that not all references to the servant of the Lord referred to the nation.
However, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is said to be both blind and deaf, and is still blind and deaf while being led out of the Babylonian exile (Isaiah 43:8). This is quite a contrast from the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:1-7 opens blind eyes [v.7]. The servant of the Lord in Isaiah 42:18-20 is both blind and deaf. Two different servants of the Lord are being mentioned in Isaiah 42.
The most specific and clear references to the servant of the Lord as an individual are in Isaiah chapters 49 through the end of 53.
Nothing about Isaiah 53 fits with the suffering servant being the nation Israel which clearly refers to an individual. And as with Isaiah 42:1-7, Targum Isaiah interprets the servant of the Lord in Isaiah 52:13 which leads into Isaiah 53 as being the Messiah.
ISAIAH 52 (BEN UZIEL) 13 Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper. He shall be exalted and extolled, and He shall be very strong. 14 As the house of Israel anxiously hoped for Him many days, (which was poor among the nations; their appearance and their brightness being worse than that of the sons of men 15 Thus shall He scatter many nations; before Him kings shall keep silence: they shall put their hands upon their mouths, for that which had not been told them shall they see: and that which they had not heard shall they consider. [Bolded mine].
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Jesus applied Isaiah 53 to Himself as recorded in Luke 22:37. As well, the apostle Philip taught Jesus to the Ethiopian Eunuch from Isaiah 53 as stated in Acts 8:26-35.
And no, Paul did not invent the ''substitutionary atonement'' ''story.'' Scholars recognize 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 to be what is referred to as a pre-Pauline tradition which goes back to the beginning of the church shortly after Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
Isaiah 53 is regarding Israel...Period...You happen to be using an edited version of Isaiah...
In his Mishnah Torah in the Laws of Kings Chapter 11 we have more:
11:1. “The Messiah will be a king who will restore the kingdom of David to its original state. He will rebuild the Temple and gather together all Jews, no matter where they were scattered.”
11:4. We may assume that a person is the Messiah if he fulfills the following conditions: He must be a ruler, from the house of David, immersed in Torah and its commandments like David his ancestor. He must also follow both the written and the Oral Torah, lead all Jews back to the Torah, strengthen the observance of its laws, and fight G-d’s battles. If one fulfills these conditions then we may assume he is the Messiah. If he does this successfully, and then rebuilds the Temple on its original site and gathers all the dispersed Jews, then we may be certain that he is the Messiah. He will then perfect the entire world and bring all men to serve G-d in unity.” - Does the Targum say Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah
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Did the Suffering Servant have a long life and children?
