Does this prove all will be saved? (Tanakh, Gomorrah, Sodom)
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But you leave out the other characteristics of God being holy and just. You leave out the many verses that declare that hell is eternal, ever-lasting, never-ending. What do you do with those verses? You must answer for those before you can dismiss them and declare your view to be true.
As pneuma posted, those verses all hinge on the biblical meaning of words rendered "for ever", "everlasting" etc. Here is an example verse that makes no sense as translated, in that "for ever" is temporary.
Here is judgment pronounced on God's people:
Isaiah 32:11-13
Tremble, ye women that are at ease; be troubled, ye careless ones: strip you, and make you bare, and gird sackcloth upon your loins. They shall lament for the teats, for the pleasant fields, for the fruitful vine. Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city
It says it lasts for ever, yet it lasts until the spirit of God is poured on them by God
Isaiah 32:14-15
Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
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Yes, it's God's will, His desire, for every person to be saved. But that doesn't mean they will because He would have to violate people's choices to reject Him. What kind of love is that?
Your belief about God violating people's choices is not self-consistent. People won't be choosing to go to hell for all eternity, yet you believe God will compel them against their choice.
And your belief is not scriptural. God routinely smashes peoples choices and will in the bible. That is what judgment is. For example, God commanded Jonah to go testify to Nineveh. Jonah was not willing nor choosing to obey God. Did God go along with Jonah's choice? Or did he smash that choice by sticking Jonah inside a fish, which Jonah considered hell forever by the way, until Jonah repented. Then because of God's judgment, Jonah was willing and choosing to obey. God changed Jonah's mind. Yes, Jonah did actually choose to repent. He didn't become a robot. Likewise, God can do with anyone.
It is loving too. If you had a child who was making all kinds of bad choices and whose "free will" was out of control, and you could see they were on a path of destruction (drugs, etc.), wouldn't you violate their choices and do everything in your power, including forms of disciple and compulsion to affect changes to their will?
As pneuma posted, those verses all hinge on the biblical meaning of words rendered "for ever", "everlasting" etc. Here is an example verse that makes no sense as translated, in that "for ever" is temporary.
Here is judgment pronounced on God's people:
It says it lasts for ever, yet it lasts until the spirit of God is poured on them by God
Isaiah 32:14-15
Because the palaces shall be forsaken; the multitude of the city shall be left; the forts and towers shall be for dens for ever, a joy of wild asses, a pasture of flocks; Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
The scriptures interpret scriptures, not us. The Bible says what it means. When you read all of Isaiah 32 it defines itself. Those judgments against the women for complacency were "for ever... UNTIL." Also, it's not written as "forever" (one word). But two words, "for" a preposition, and "ever" (signifying a sure time).
When you look it up in Strongs Concordance, in the Hebrew, it signifies a passage of time whether temporary or permanent. How do we know which one it is? By reading it in context. Those judgments were "for ever," or "for sure," and would remain in effect UNTIL - "Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
God was saying that His punishment will surely happen and it will last until He fulfilled the promise He originally made. God's punishment did NOT negate the promise. It was correction, not an eternal sentence.
On the contrary, when you look up ANY passage about the eternal, ever-lasting, forever condition of eternity in hell, there are NO such interruptions. Not once does it say people will be in hell until. That isn't correction. It's judgment. And it's permanent.
You have absolutely NO scriptural references, examples or evidence that hell is temporary. No exceptions.
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Your belief about God violating people's choices is not self-consistent. People won't be choosing to go to hell for all eternity, yet you believe God will compel them against their choice.
God gives every person the free will to decide whether they want to accept and follow Jesus. He will not interfere with that. If people choose not to receive Jesus in this life, God honors that decision. Love demands that people receive Jesus freely, not compulsory as your "everyone is saved in the end" demands. But, with choices come consequences. God clearly lays them out. By rejecting Jesus, you're choosing to pay for your own sins. That's can only be done in hell. God is honoring their decision to live without Him in this life, and He honors it in the next one.
In your example about Jonah, Jonah already belonged to God. He was being disobedient and God sent correction, not judgment upon Him. So yes, what I'm saying IS scriptural. It's the "everyone is saved in the end" bit that's not.
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It is loving too. If you had a child who was making all kinds of bad choices and whose "free will" was out of control, and you could see they were on a path of destruction (drugs, etc.), wouldn't you violate their choices and do everything in your power, including forms of disciple and compulsion to affect changes to their will?
Yes, God loves His children. But those who do not belong to God are not His children. Read John 8:37-47. Every person will spend eternity with their father. For those who repent, and receive Jesus on this earth, God is their Father. Those who don't, as Jesus Himself declared, are of their father, the devil.
So, I've responded to all of your points. I'd like you to do the same please. How do you explain all of the references, even from Jesus Himself, that refer to hell as eternal, ever-lasting, forever (one word), continual. When you look at those verses, and then look them up in the Strong's Concordance (which defines them from their original language so WE don't have to define them ourselves), they all mean the same thing. ETERNAL. No end. And there are so or exceptions or "until such a time" clauses. How do you get around all of those? I can list them for you if you like but I'm sure you know them. I've yet to see a single Universalist explain it. All they do is turn it around and ask more questions of others.
The scriptures interpret scriptures, not us. The Bible says what it means. When you read all of Isaiah 32 it defines itself. Those judgments against the women for complacency were "for ever... UNTIL." Also, it's not written as "forever" (one word). But two words, "for" a preposition, and "ever" (signifying a sure time).
When you look it up in Strongs Concordance, in the Hebrew, it signifies a passage of time whether temporary or permanent. How do we know which one it is? By reading it in context. Those judgments were "for ever," or "for sure," and would remain in effect UNTIL - "Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
God was saying that His punishment will surely happen and it will last until He fulfilled the promise He originally made. God's punishment did NOT negate the promise. It was correction, not an eternal sentence.
On the contrary, when you look up ANY passage about the eternal, ever-lasting, forever condition of eternity in hell, there are NO such interruptions. Not once does it say people will be in hell until. That isn't correction. It's judgment. And it's permanent.
You have absolutely NO scriptural references, examples or evidence that hell is temporary. No exceptions.
God gives every person the free will to decide whether they want to accept and follow Jesus. He will not interfere with that. If people choose not to receive Jesus in this life, God honors that decision. Love demands that people receive Jesus freely, not compulsory as your "everyone is saved in the end" demands. But, with choices come consequences. God clearly lays them out. By rejecting Jesus, you're choosing to pay for your own sins. That's can only be done in hell. God is honoring their decision to live without Him in this life, and He honors it in the next one.
In your example about Jonah, Jonah already belonged to God. He was being disobedient and God sent correction, not judgment upon Him. So yes, what I'm saying IS scriptural. It's the "everyone is saved in the end" bit that's not.
Yes, God loves His children. But those who do not belong to God are not His children. Read John 8:37-47. Every person will spend eternity with their father. For those who repent, and receive Jesus on this earth, God is their Father. Those who don't, as Jesus Himself declared, are of their father, the devil.
So, I've responded to all of your points. I'd like you to do the same please. How do you explain all of the references, even from Jesus Himself, that refer to hell as eternal, ever-lasting, forever (one word), continual. When you look at those verses, and then look them up in the Strong's Concordance (which defines them from their original language so WE don't have to define them ourselves), they all mean the same thing. ETERNAL. No end. And there are so or exceptions or "until such a time" clauses. How do you get around all of those? I can list them for you if you like but I'm sure you know them. I've yet to see a single Universalist explain it. All they do is turn it around and ask more questions of others.
The believe or else mentality? I don't think so?
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.
His power and divine nature are the only things which are Eternal. And the New Testament has only one word which can truthfully be translated as eternal. This is the Greek word Aidios which is used only twice: For since the creation of the world GODS invisible qualities - His eternal (aidios) power and divine nature - have been clearly seen.
If you read Jude 6, 7 - you will see a difference between them, whereas, they do not use the same Greek Word. The fire speaks to that of an age (a period of time), not something that is without a beginning or an end. And the eternal chains that hold them has to do with his eternal power, not all eternity .... Nobody would use two different words two describe the same thing, unless there was a difference in their application. Any divergence or variance is worthy of attention and significant.
Furthermore:
Timothy 2:4
... who desires ALL people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that mankind might come to this salvation and knowledge.
God gives every person the free will to decide whether they want to accept and follow Jesus.
The New Testament does not teach that people have free will. It teaches that people are bound up in sin because they were born in subjection to Adam's curse. Read the book of Romans and you cannot possibly believe that scriptures teach that we have free will. The scriptures also clearly teach that God is sovereign over all (from the least to the greatest) and that he subjects all to his sovereign will which includes choosing us in his own time and order. Why? So that no one may boast in his presence. You sound to me like so many fundamentalists who boast about being saved because THEY MADE A DECISION. It's a very subtle stumbling stone, but it is not hard for humans to stumble over the truth.
The New Testament does not teach that people have free will. It teaches that people are bound up in sin because they were born in subjection to Adam's curse. Read the book of Romans and you cannot possibly believe that scriptures teach that we have free will. The scriptures also clearly teach that God is sovereign over all (from the least to the greatest) and that he subjects all to his sovereign will which includes choosing us in his own time and order. Why? So that no one may boast in his presence. You sound to me like so many fundamentalists who boast about being saved because THEY MADE A DECISION. It's a very subtle stumbling stone, but it is not hard for humans to stumble over the truth.
RM, it's a lie sold to the masses by fundamentalists that puts the emphasis and responsibilty on them(the masses) rather than God while at the same time taking God out of the equation.
The New Testament does not teach that people have free will. It teaches that people are bound up in sin because they were born in subjection to Adam's curse. Read the book of Romans and you cannot possibly believe that scriptures teach that we have free will. The scriptures also clearly teach that God is sovereign over all (from the least to the greatest) and that he subjects all to his sovereign will which includes choosing us in his own time and order. Why? So that no one may boast in his presence. You sound to me like so many fundamentalists who boast about being saved because THEY MADE A DECISION. It's a very subtle stumbling stone, but it is not hard for humans to stumble over the truth.
Actually, he sounds like a poster that was on the forum, not that long ago.
The scriptures interpret scriptures, not us. The Bible says what it means.
I was taught the same thing. But I no longer believe that scripture interprets scripture. I would say that the Spirit of God interprets scripture. If all you need is scripture to interpret scripture then an atheist can know the things of God. But he cannot. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. At any rate, that's another discussion. I am happy to try to use scripture to interpret scripture.
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When you read all of Isaiah 32 it defines itself. Those judgments against the women for complacency were "for ever... UNTIL." Also, it's not written as "forever" (one word). But two words, "for" a preposition, and "ever" (signifying a sure time).
Whether they translated it as one word "forever" or two words "for ever" is not relevant. That is the whim of the translators. In Hebrew it is one word olam. My reason for quoting that passage was to show that olam does not imply infinite duration.
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When you look it up in Strongs Concordance, in the Hebrew, it signifies a passage of time whether temporary or permanent. How do we know which one it is? By reading it in context.
And if there is no context? When it says in Daniel 12: 1 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to life olam, and some to shame and contempt olam." there is no context to tell you whether the shame is temporary or permanent. Why do you assume the worst?
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Those judgments were "for ever," or "for sure," and would remain in effect UNTIL - "Until the spirit be poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness be a fruitful field, and the fruitful field be counted for a forest.
Saying "for sure... until" makes sense. Saying "for ever.. until" makes no sense in English.
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God was saying that His punishment will surely happen and it will last until He fulfilled the promise He originally made. God's punishment did NOT negate the promise. It was correction, not an eternal sentence.
It was not an eternal punishment yet it was an olam punishment . So lets not assume that olam punishments are eternal punishments.
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On the contrary, when you look up ANY passage about the eternal, ever-lasting, forever condition of eternity in hell, there are NO such interruptions. Not once does it say people will be in hell until. That isn't correction. It's judgment. And it's permanent. You have absolutely NO scriptural references, examples or evidence that hell is temporary. No exceptions.
They are all based on assuming that aionios or olam punishments are eternal when we just saw an olam punishment that was temporary.
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God gives every person the free will to decide whether they want to accept and follow Jesus. He will not interfere with that. If people choose not to receive Jesus in this life, God honors that decision. Love demands that people receive Jesus freely, not compulsory as your "everyone is saved in the end" demands.
Where did you get that God will not interfere with that? God is the God of your will and my will. A person born of God is not born because of his free will. There are not some "good" free wills and some "bad" free wills, where the "good" free wills freely receive Jesus and the "bad" free wills freely reject Jesus and go to hell. How is it that you believe some freely choose Jesus when there is none good and none seeking God?
My belief is not about compelling anyone to receive Jesus. Why is it that you see only these two alternatives:
(a) Some of the NONE GOOD freely choose Jesus while the rest of the NONE GOOD reject Jesus.
(b) We are compelled to choose Jesus like a robot.
What about a third alternative: Being taught of God. Learning the error of your way. Being convinced.
Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Would you say God refers to them as having "a stony heart" while they are freely choosing and loving God? Or is it because they are freely rejecting God? Yet in that state of rejecting God, God promises He will at some point give them a heart of flesh by which God will cause them to keep His word. Wouldn't you say that once they receive this new heart and are walking in God's statutes that they love God? I think so. I don't see that God is waiting for them to "freely choose" Him. God is Lord over man's will.
Yet I don't believe that what God is referring to here is God compelling them to love him, or making them robots. God does not simply rip out their evil heart and drop a new heart that loves God. Rather, God teaches them, corrects them, convinces them, even if in part by harsh corrective judgments.
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But, with choices come consequences. God clearly lays them out. By rejecting Jesus, you're choosing to pay for your own sins. That's can only be done in hell. God is honoring their decision to live without Him in this life, and He honors it in the next one.
Yes, choices have consequences. No, paying for sins cannot only be done in hell. See my comments below on Lamentations 3. They were not forgiven. They were paying for their sins. They were not in hell.
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In your example about Jonah, Jonah already belonged to God. He was being disobedient and God sent correction, not judgment upon Him. So yes, what I'm saying IS scriptural. It's the "everyone is saved in the end" bit that's not.
Where do you get the idea that judgment cannot be corrective? There are many judgments in scripture that are corrective. At any rate, we are talking about a principal: Does God honor peoples' "free will" choices or does God intervene, correct, sometimes harshly.
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Yes, God loves His children. But those who do not belong to God are not His children. Read John 8:37-47. Every person will spend eternity with their father.
Yes, those who do not belong to God are not His children. But that passage says nothing about every person spending eternity with their father. That passage says that the seed of Abraham (children of God) are known by their actions. Jesus identified them as children of the devil because they wanted to murder him. Likewise, Saul (later Paul) was a child of the devil at that time he was seeking to murder believers. Yet he did not and will not spend eternity with his father at the time, the devil. He was born again and became a child of God.
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For those who repent, and receive Jesus on this earth, God is their Father. Those who don't, as Jesus Himself declared, are of their father, the devil.
All were at one time children of the devil, until such time as they were born again.
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So, I've responded to all of your points. I'd like you to do the same please. How do you explain all of the references, even from Jesus Himself, that refer to hell as eternal, ever-lasting, forever (one word), continual. When you look at those verses, and then look them up in the Strong's Concordance (which defines them from their original language so WE don't have to define them ourselves), they all mean the same thing. ETERNAL. No end. And there are so or exceptions or "until such a time" clauses. How do you get around all of those? I can list them for you if you like but I'm sure you know them. I've yet to see a single Universalist explain it. All they do is turn it around and ask more questions of others.
Those are all based on exactly one thing. They are based on the translation of aionios or olam as "everlasting", "eternal", or "forever". Yet there are translators who disagree and translate them otherwise. For example Young's Literal translation routinely translates aionios as "age during" in the passages you are referring to. Strongs and translators are not "the word of God" are they? They are men with opinions.
So what basis can I use to discern who is right?
a) There are examples in scripture where aionios and olam are not everlasting at all. Therefore any claim that these words are synonymous with "everlasting" or "forever" are simply wrong.
b) There are Greek scholars and translators who disagree that these words mean "everlasting" or "forever".
c) Some early Christians like St. Gregory of Nyssa, who were fluent in biblical Greek and even sometimes quoted some of these "eternal" verses you refer to, did not believe in everlasting hell. Were they deluded, or perhaps they knew their native language better than some modern scholars.
d) There are other passages not using any of these words, that explain the very nature of God and how He deals with sin and sinners that contradict the concept of eternal hell.
For example, in Lamentation 3, the prophet Jeremiah asks this question:
Lamentations 3:39
Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
So the subject of this chapter is suffering he and his people were enduring as punishment for their sins. What else does the prophet say about God?
Lamentations 3:31
For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
So I conclude from this passage an absolute truth about God:
- God WILL punish sin.
- God WILL afflict and cause grief.
- God WILL NOT cast off forever the children of men as punishment for their sin.
And what is Christian hell? It is God casting off men forever as punishment for their sin.
So should I trust Strongs and translators who say by their translations that God WILL cast the children of men off forever as punishment for their sins or should I trust the prophet's simple words?
In Matthew Jesus commands us to love our enemies so that we will be like our heavenly Father. Yet Strongs etc. has convinced you that God will cast His enemies into hell and there they will suffer immensely for all eternity. Can you think of anything more opposite to love? I guess you don't see a massive contradiction there, but I do.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 05-13-2018 at 10:48 PM..
Lamentations 3:31
For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
So I conclude from this passage an absolute truth about God:
- God WILL punish sin.
- God WILL afflict and cause grief.
- God WILL NOT cast off forever the children of men as punishment for their sin.
And what is Christian hell? It is God casting off men forever as punishment for their sin.
Our heavenly Father is the Father of all fathers, as such He has an end in mind that leads to the good of His children! There is only corrective punishment and certainly not "casting off men forever for their sin."
"From Him ta pante comes ,through Him ta pante exists, and in Him ta pante ends..."
Ta pante= the all=
"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends."
“-This plea contradicts itself; for to assert that because of man's freedom he can go on for ever choosing evil, is, in fact, to plead not for human freedom, but for servitude, the basest, the most degrading. Take the assertion to pieces and it comes to this. To preserve man's dignity he must be permitted to become the slave of evil if he will, the associate of devils for ever -to secure his prerogative of freedom he must be allowed to sink into hopeless servitude to sin. What would you say were an earthly father to reason thus?-I will permit my child to become a hopeless drunkard for the sake of preserving his sobriety; I will permit my daughter to sink into vice for the sake of preserving her chastity. Under these circumstances, it is mere rhetoric to talk of "forcing" the will. The will yields, because it is free, and because good is finally the strongest force in an universe ruled by God.” -Christ Triumphant-
But you leave out the other characteristics of God being holy and just. You leave out the many verses that declare that hell is eternal, ever-lasting, never-ending. What do you do with those verses? You must answer for those before you can dismiss them and declare your view to be true.
Yes, it's God's will, His desire, for every person to be saved. But that doesn't mean they will because He would have to violate people's choices to reject Him. What kind of love is that?
People don't like/want to believe in hell. Who does? But God, His ways, and His words are NOT subject to human desires, wishes, economy, government or personal beliefs. Only the foolish try to conform the scriptures to their lives instead of conforming their lives to the scriptures. Hell is eternal because the offense and the target of our sin - God - is eternal.
It's very, very easy to twist any scripture to mean what we want it to. But, God said what He meant and meant what He said. It's not a matter of personal interpretation and desire.
the word 'eternal' is not as scary as many make it out to be. In the afterlife, TIME ITSELF does not exist anymore.
Many people I know equate 'eternity' with a very very long time, like a trillion years, but in reality, its NOTHING like that...its NO time at all, it wont feel like a trillion years OR feel like 2 seconds. We cannot comprehend what it feels like to exist in a place with no time, its just not possible for any of us.
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