Why do you think Christians in the West still feel this way about evangelizing? (Gospel, hell)
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I've noticed that new Christians in the persecuted countries may not even have Bibles (since in some places it's illegal), yet, they have more knowledge when it comes to telling others the glad tidings that Christ brought.
Why do you think that, with all our books, tapes, DVDs, conferences and seminars and workshops, Bible bookstores, multiple translations of the Bible (book form and online), etc., etc., that we still lack the same concise communication of the Word which the apostles, early church and current martyred churches possess? It's like we can't even remember or understand it all, so we think it must be in a quick & easy nutshell like the "4 Spiritual laws" b/c s.how we won't "botch up" (in our own eyes, not necessarily the Holy Spirit's eyes). The 4 laws helped me ... a little. By no means were they what God used to bring me to make a decision for Christ. When I've evangelized I've always, ALWAYS been continuously "checking in" with the Spirit not just before and after, that's a given. I've done it every moment DURING my encounters. I HAD to. It's resulted in the most amazing testimonials of Jesus turn-arounds in people's lives, and all I was doing was listening. Are people more interested in "works" which are their own, not the Spirit's?
I remember one dude jumping into a conversation like a bull in a china shop with this homeless girl. He told her "you don't deserve Jesus' love." Her face just .... I can't find a word to describe it. She was dying inside. He continued to say, in a very pablum way Jesus decided to love her anyway in that "oh, I guess I will" tone in his voice.
Her face just sank. I interjected b/c I knew she was at that point NOT comprehending Jesus' grace. The dude thought she was, (and likely that she was being "a hardened sinner") but a little puppy could've seen she wasn't!! Dispelling hermeneutics at that point and purely opting for the heart of Christ, I interjected "but you know, honey, s.times I look up to heaven and say, but God I DO deserve your help and love, b/c you MADE me!!" Her face was relieved that God really was kind after all. I went on to tell her that it was precisely BECAUSE Jesus thought her worthy - He saw her as immensely valuable in His eyes -- that he died for her.
I'm livid that Christians are committing Matthew 23:13 with nobody stopping them. It's actually the whole Church in the West. What's up with THAT? (I won't put the verse here, you need to look it up.)
I hardly think Jesus wants us to imagine that "you s***, you're going ta hell" is the Gospel. ("Indeed in the whole world that Gospel is bearing fruit and still is growing by its own inherent power." Colossians 1:6a)
Let's put our heads together here, guys!!!! Come 'on!
Let's stop this madness! Time's running out and so many are broken.
(I could apologize for showing anger, but I don't think I will.....)
My Brother, You are justified in your anger. Commercial churchianity in America is nothing but get rich quick hucksterism and is so far from Jesus's teachings that even most believing Christians are deceived about the Gospel. We are commanded by Jesus to go to the nations and spread the Gospel. We are commanded to love one another as Jesus loves us. None of us "deserves" God's love. We deserve only death. And that is the Gospel! Jesus's loving sacrifice forgave our sins and saved us from death! The world needs to hear this. But go to a church today and what will you hear? Funding needs to support our "ministry". The emphasis on tithing. Sow and reap. Malachi and God's curse. Join the local church and be there every time the door is open (and when the offering plate is passed...). Support missions to Monaco and Aruba! You don't hear much about missions to unpleasant places...Is your pastor going to where the homeless exist to give them the hope of the Gospel? They don't have any money; does he go there? Does he fly off business class to mission conferences in Singapore and Acapulco? Wouldn't that same money have built a church house in Nepal? Wouldn't it buy Bibles for a whole village? Didn't Paul make tents to support his ministry? Your anger is justified just as Jesus's was at the swindlers in the Temple at Jerusalem. They make all Christians look like hypocrits.
It appears you are too severe in misunderstanding a key point to my post.
The incident with the homeless gal happened 10 years ago. I hope that the dude in the story learned from the incident that one doesn't charge in like that - charging in w/ condemnation.
Jesus Himself never did (unless they were religious beasts) such as I point out with Matt. 23:13.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi
----None of us "deserves" God's love. We deserve only death. And that is the Gospel!
Had the gal had heard this? She would be a suicide statistic right now. That's EXACTLY the point I'm making.
Jesus stated that he came to help the sick, those needing doctors. Would a doctor tell a patient "aw you're goin' to die!!" in that harsh way as you did and do so without offering AFTERWARDS the hope? Jesus not only would not, but never did. He did point out to them that they were "sick" (erring and sinning) but he then offered healing, forgiveness, guidance....and then His own Holy Body as the atoning which Heaven requires.
In all cases, He gave hope and love (except to the religious). Telling s.one you s** and are goin' ta hell is NOT the pure true gospel in the Word, as you suggest. You have quite seriously massacred my point.
A few of the other points feel comforting, though, I will say.
When you say that NO one on TV could possibly represent Christ, doesn't that seem just far too spreading of a generalization? Some generalizations are true, but how you state yourself is either too general or too bombastic. (Then again, your name is vagabond, huh?)
Thank you for understanding. We're on this subject for others, are we not?
I wish to also say, my post is about the wrong of superficiality in evangelizing. Christians who evangelize all too often preach condemnation and no hope which is easy for any one to do b/c all they have to say is "you're goin' ta hell". Any clod condemns.
Jesus said himself "I came not to condemn the world but to save it".
By your harsh statements above you are doing that very thing Christ despised in Matt. 23:13 and to which my story refers. Please either correct it, if it was unintended, or explain further. For to say you agree and then say the opposite of my post is unclear or appears dishonest.
(It is of concern to me b/c it is also dangerously close to being injurious to many who need the hope Christ gives to the weak.)
U know Isaiah 30 :18 u make a very good point here -one that has been a growing concern for me. I use to always chase after the next "got-to have" teaching tape series or the next book filled with "revelation light" or stand in long lines to hear premium guest speakers at what ever seminar I could get to. I always felt like I needed to be taught more about the Word of God so I could grow-up spiritually and eventually become a "faith giant" or master the formula to overcome every obstacle in my life. I kept my TV on the TRINITY broadcast. I have purchased thousands of dollars in teaching series and books, but I don't think I am necessarily any better for it. In fact it became a form of bondage for me. I have a very extensive Christian library, but I had to come to the point of saying enough is enough. The Bible is the most important book and that is where I should spend most of my time. I am still not a spiritual giant and I wish I were on fire in the mission fields...well I have teaching tapes and books, but I would rather have revival. I am not sure what the answer is to your question, but I do understand the problem to a certain extent.
---U know Isaiah 30 :18 u make a very good point here -one that has been a growing concern for me.
--- I am not sure what the answer is to your question, but I do understand the problem to a certain extent.
That comforts me. (Although tapes, etc. are good for the blind or those who struggle with illiteracy, and they've helped me when I had nobody to teach me.) The memorized and mindless repetitions of formulas, however, yuk.
I used to teach. People are so lazy oftentimes. They'd show that they just don't like to think, and they find it inconvenient. Jesus, in this Matthew passage is so brilliant! He saw that the sloppy, apathetic religious people were keeping the hungry ones like the homeless gal in my story (or like the drug lords, violent / rebellious teens, etc.) from arriving at the True Truth.
Yo Izzie,
Your frustration and irritation come off as anger. Where is G-d in that? I respect your point of view and your frustration. I don't respect your anger. And I'm a fella who enjoys the full experience of all emotions and appropriate evangelism.
We can talk about Christ's anger at the change table, but we shouldn't be turning over change tables ourselves. We may be Christians, but we are not Christ. And if we think we can do s/t like that and call ourselves Christians, we have become a mockery. If an unbeliever was reading your words now, would they see divisiveness? You make some legitimate points about evangelism and being 'on-fire,' but you've gone beyond John the Baptist-radical-upset, you're way more than that. And that's worrisome and kinda frightening. What happens when you don't get heard, get your point across, or when people don't get you?
I would suggest your take some perspective. Better, you go to the mission field, and provide the service you seek to have offered. Start in your neighborhood, continue into the nether neighborhoods, and continue to pursue it beyond. If you can sell it to the poor, it's too good for money. If no one buys your agenda in that field, your message is horse hockey.
Satan may be busy, but in America, we have lost the battle to complacency. Because everything is available and easy, our arms are down and our armor is off. Pity those who remain for the beginning of the tribulation, if they think now-a-days that spiritual persecution is getting a speeding ticket while driving to church and spiritual warfare is a hang-nail that catches on the hymnal. Chill bro, you're going to slice off someone's ear (I will let you find the reference for that).
....and I suppose you don't come off sounding angry.
First of all, you're a stranger, so I don't need to explain myself to you.
When someone without hope (that homeless girl and many like her) is getting more sucked down into the pit, and by a Christian, no less, you bet your bippy I'm going to step in.
Whether or not s.one thinks I ought to or not, I'll step in. I step in to show them what the Bible has to say. Not what some popular Christian lingo tells me I should say. Most Christians I know understand this completely.
That is what this whole post's about....
I have done missions all my adult life, and I lean on Jesus' guidance for that important work, not on a book about how to evangelize. Since Jesus stepped into my heart, I have done this, so that one down you may put down. I know where that "ear" verse is located, so your ignited sarcasm you may put down, too.
As for divisiveness...well, you have proved that one beautifully.
I am talking about evangelizing approaches, not peoples' hearts.
You are taking this far too personally. And condemning in the process.
Naturally, one can disagree, but your sarcasm is a bit much.
As I said, I don't need to explain myself to you. To you or your false argumentative assumptions about my heart, which only God can see.
People disagree all the time, but that does not mean they may make reckless accusations on a person's character as you have about mine.
I have spoken no ill here or anywhere about any individual's heartthis entire time. But you have of mine.
I truely think God's love should be taught more than the threat of eternal damnation. A fathers love is way above the punishment of wrong doing. I too would have interjected with a message of God's love to the homeless girl if someone else was berating her like you said.
I truely think God's love should be taught more than the threat of eternal damnation. A fathers love is way above the punishment of wrong doing. I too would have interjected with a message of God's love to the homeless girl if someone else was berating her like you said.
That's so comforting to know. Thanks much for your input.
That's really why I posted this....(and wanted to see how many gentle souls are out there). Have you ever read that cool verse about God writing His law on the hearts of people who don't even know about Him?
These are still the days of grace. Until Christ says otherwise, I'm stickin' with that one!!....HIS agenda...
Nor was Christ milk-toasty about His agenda. I mean He indeed preached strongly about the very physical presence of eternal separation from God, but notice when and where He did that.... certainly not while healing the blind Bartimaeus (sp?) or raising the little girl from the dead or even telling the prostitute "go and sin no more" which, for many, would've seemed like the perfect time "to really let her have it!" But no, He was composed while letting her know how He felt about adultery as sin. There are so many ways one can tell someone that what they're doing is wrong in human eyes or sin in the eyes of a holy God. I just love the perfect way Jesus did it.
Jesus rocks!!!!
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Thanks much for your input.
