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I used to believe the Masoretic Text was a perfect copy of the original Old Testament. I used to believe that the Masoretic Text was how God divinely preserved the Hebrew Scriptures throughout the ages. I was wrong.
The oldest copies of the Masoretic Text only date back to the 10th century, nearly 1000 years after the time of Christ. And these texts differ from the originals in many specific ways. The Masoretic text is named after theMasoretes, who were scribes and Torah scholars who worked in the middle-east between the 7th and 11th centuries. The texts they received, and the edits they provided, ensured that the modern Jewish texts would manifest a notable departure from the original Hebrew Scriptures.
Historical research reveals five significant ways in which the Masoretic Text is different from the original Old Testament:
The Masoretes admitted that they received corrupted texts to begin with.
The Masoretic Text is written with a radically different alphabet than the original.
The Masoretes added vowel points which did not exist in the original.
The Masoretic Text excluded several books from the Old Testament scriptures.
The Masoretic Text includes changes to prophecy and doctrine.
Interestingly sir, the quotations of the Bible given by Jesus and the apostles were from the Septuagint, the version that was available then. In rebutting Satan, Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 according to the Greek Septuagint version of this Hebrew scripture.
The fact is the Septuagint quoted from the New Testament.
This fraud book was not produced until at least 300 years after Yahashua
despite the attempt of Rome and Egyptian rulers to destroy the original.
But we see that they fail to provide any evidence that the Septuagint was a complete set of scrolls that were used by the Hebrew Priests, Peter, Paul and Yahoshua..
The Greek Septuagint has absolutely no valid proof of being completed before nearly 300 - 500 years after Christ.
This is the fact. There never was any proof of a Greek Septuagint. Meaning = There was and “ IS “ no real verifiable valid proof that there was a set of the ENTIRE (complete) Septuagint Translation of the Septuagint before nearly 500 AD.
Codex Alexandrinus - is the oldest complete text of the entire Greek Bible and this is only dated back to the year 450 AD. This complete Greek Old Testament is the only complete known to have ever existed, as a completed Greek Translation. It is found in the British Library, Royal 1 D. VIII London U. Kingdom.
The fraudulent, fake and forged Letters of Roman Catholic Church Fathers and Egyptian super heroes making claims about a complete Greek Old Testament has nothing to do with reality or any FACT. Their claims have no proof and no valid evidence.
The evidence proves that in order for the completion of The Septuagint called “ the LXX “ it had to include the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century AD and the Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century. The usage and copying and insertion of these above Codex’s - show to be how The Septuagint was completed. There is not a shred of evidence of a complete Bible called “ The Septuagint “ to have ever existed before the 4 th century AD.
What people are today calling The Septuagint is nothing more but the = LATER COMPLETED Codex Alexandrinus …. The very first mention of the word “ Septuagint “ was coined first by The Catholic Church Father Augustine in 400 – 400 AD.
All they have are a very few bits and pieces of fragments, In fact, the ONLY Greek manuscript FRAGMENTS of the Old Testament from before the time of Christ in existence, today is Ryland's Papyrus #458, which contains only 6 chapters of Deuteronomy. …. There are absolutely NO manuscript fragments pre-dating the third or fourth century A.D. to validate the claim that Jesus or Paul quoted a Greek Old Testament.
The facts show that there has never been a Bible Translation called The Septuagint. People are simply taking a Greek Bible that was completed in the 4 th and 5 centuries and sticking a label onto it.
The word Septuagint itself - does not even appear in history until 400 to 500 years after Yahoshua.
The fact is the Septuagint was written hundreds of years after Yahasha and then were the nearly exact Greek New Testament passages were translated over into the creating of the Septuagint.
The fact is the Septuagint quoted from the New Testament.
This fraud book was not produced until at least 300 years after Yahashua
despite the attempt of Rome and Egyptian rulers to destroy the original.
But we see that they fail to provide any evidence that the Septuagint was a complete set of scrolls that were used by the Hebrew Priests, Peter, Paul and Yahoshua..
The Greek Septuagint has absolutely no valid proof of being completed before nearly 300 - 500 years after Christ.
This is the fact. There never was any proof of a Greek Septuagint. Meaning = There was and “ IS “ no real verifiable valid proof that there was a set of the ENTIRE (complete) Septuagint Translation of the Septuagint before nearly 500 AD.
Codex Alexandrinus - is the oldest complete text of the entire Greek Bible and this is only dated back to the year 450 AD. This complete Greek Old Testament is the only complete known to have ever existed, as a completed Greek Translation. It is found in the British Library, Royal 1 D. VIII London U. Kingdom.
The fraudulent, fake and forged Letters of Roman Catholic Church Fathers and Egyptian super heroes making claims about a complete Greek Old Testament has nothing to do with reality or any FACT. Their claims have no proof and no valid evidence.
The evidence proves that in order for the completion of The Septuagint called “ the LXX “ it had to include the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century AD and the Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century. The usage and copying and insertion of these above Codex’s - show to be how The Septuagint was completed. There is not a shred of evidence of a complete Bible called “ The Septuagint “ to have ever existed before the 4 th century AD.
What people are today calling The Septuagint is nothing more but the = LATER COMPLETED Codex Alexandrinus …. The very first mention of the word “ Septuagint “ was coined first by The Catholic Church Father Augustine in 400 – 400 AD.
All they have are a very few bits and pieces of fragments, In fact, the ONLY Greek manuscript FRAGMENTS of the Old Testament from before the time of Christ in existence, today is Ryland's Papyrus #458, which contains only 6 chapters of Deuteronomy. …. There are absolutely NO manuscript fragments pre-dating the third or fourth century A.D. to validate the claim that Jesus or Paul quoted a Greek Old Testament.
The facts show that there has never been a Bible Translation called The Septuagint. People are simply taking a Greek Bible that was completed in the 4 th and 5 centuries and sticking a label onto it.
The word Septuagint itself - does not even appear in history until 400 to 500 years after Yahoshua.
The fact is the Septuagint was written hundreds of years after Yahasha and then were the nearly exact Greek New Testament passages were translated over into the creating of the Septuagint.
You talk about evidence but fail to produce any evidence to back up your claim. If you have such evidence then link to it instead of making mere assertions. Back up your claim with solid evidence instead of expecting people to take your word for it.
I have no hard feelings or bias discussing the facts of history, this is the evidence in history that shows the path leading to exactly what we have today. I love Trinitarians just as much as I love any other Muslim or anyone of any other faith.
But we can not ignore that Trinitarians and Muslims together have completely destroyed everything they could concerning the translating of scriptures into a modern / updated language for the last 2000 years.
this is all I was trying to say. - My ancestors were not perfect.. however - -
The miracle of preservation is that the Trinitarians and Muslims failed.
The fact, is there is not a spec or trace of any proof whatsoever concerning the Septuagint to explain or even EXCUSE WHY - the Genesis account has Mathusala living through the flood but was * never*
on the ark - and that he lived 14 years after the flood.
There are no Greek variants or manuscripts that support that this textual error occured.
There are no manuscripts of the Septuagint before 300 to 500 years after Yahashua that exist as a completed work supporting The Greek Septuagint.
The Vaticanus is the earliest complete Greek Old Testament - along with the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus these have all been dated to the 4th and 5th Centuries AD - after Yahashua.
REGARDING THE Masoretic Text
There were 860 differences between Ben Naphtali and Ben Asher Bibles - who were the two main families of Bibles produced / duplicated / copied - by the Jews called The Masoretes - - Masoretic Texts
These 860 differences are only referring to the writing style of where the placing of the accents = markings are used, also differences between the vowels, accents, and consonantal spelling.
The differences between the two Masorites - do not reflect in any way two different views, contradictions or personal opinions; the two rivals represent different schools of language structure. .
This website - explains this in complete detail.
BEN NAPHTALI - JewishEncyclopedia.com
The message is the same message - As the Hebrew language was being attacked and changing and the Jews were being scattered around the world – the Hebrew Language began to change in various locations in diacritical markings is the vowels, the accents, and consonantal spellings and parts of speech. THIS HAS NOTHING to do with any contradictions in the message - when two schools of language are under – developing a difference in their structure of a SPOKEN language.
This does not change the message intended - when the writer and reader understanding the adaptations in the language structure read the Bible based on the intent of the writer. / copyist.
The Problem with the Greek Old Testament Translations - is that they most all are in complete contradiction with one another and most of them are incomplete.
Until the Latin / Italian word " Septuagint " appears in the 4 th century - there never was a complete Greek Old Testament known anywhere whatsoever available for any translator to use - even Jerome. Jerome even stated this fact when he translated the Bible into Latin.
The name Septuagint is a Latin word = from the Latin septuaginta, - meaning = “70”
after Christ - many Egyptian and Roman citizens were allowed to possess ONLY GREEK Old Testament verses.
All Hebrew Bibles were burned, banned by the Trinitarians and posessing or translating Hebrew Texts was punishable by death and torture and exile.
Rome and Egypts Trinitarians produced and promoted the Septuagint. While exterminating and destroying the Hebrew Bible.
The Septuagint is filled with many errors and falsehoods-
The Goliath Giant in the Septuagint was only six feet tall. This is not a giant !
Giants are not merely 5 to 6 feet tall.
The Torah in Hebrew says he was a giant, standing nearly 9 - 10 feet tall. These type of major differences are exactly why the Septuagint was written - to undermine and change and alter the Bible and cause people to have argumentive differences and doubts concerning God's word.
The Septuagint goes through the Old Testament making little contradictory changes such as placing Mathusala as having lived for nearly 15 years beyond / past the date of flood event, but yet - was never on the ark.
The Septuagint also says literally - that angels are called " The Sons Of God " but The Masoretic Hebrew never says this - The Sons Of God are never once described as Angels. - - God said in the New Testament that no Angel has never, ever been known - to be called His Son.
One of the major problems with The Septuagint - is that we do not have anything like it in the original language. The Septuagint has no original Hebrew manuscripts to show from what it was translated from.
All that is claimed is that seventy Jews who shut themselves and hid themselves in one single location produced The Septuagint (for Ptolemy king of Egypt.
But to hide the fact that they had no manuscripts, they made up and added to the story that they received inspiration for the translation from the holy spirit -
The fact is …
The most stunning reality is that Jerome originally started off pretended that there was a Greek translation of The Old testament - but once he dove into his translation project he found that there was next to nothing - VALID or complete - in Greek whatsoever - concerning the Old Testament. So Jerome turned to the Hebrew Masoretic Text manuscripts. was the Hebrew texts which were the inspired words of God.
What is stunning about the whole situation is that Jerome and His Catholic Church did not even preserve the original Hebrew manuscripts from which he had translated from.
THIS IS ASTONISHING - think of it
Jerome and His Catholic Church did not even preserve the original Hebrew manuscripts from which he had translated from.
The Catholic Church preserved Jerome's writings that tell-all - all about his problems with using the Greek texts. But they did not preserve any of the Hebrew texts that Jerome claims were so vital and critical and helpful in translating the Bible into Latin.
The real question is -
AND WHY DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEED TO MAKE ANOTHER LATIN TRANSLATION TO CORRECT THE PREVIOUS CORRUPTED LATIN TRANSLATION ?
This means the previous version of the Latin Bible had been corrupted while - IN THE VATICAN. !
or the perhaps the Catholic Church did not have a bible for 400 years - or maybe did not exist for 400 years after Christ.
THIS IS THE CRITICAL THINKING THAT PROVES THAT THE SEPTUAGINT IS A TOTAL FRAUD AND TRINITARISN WILL HEAR NON OF IT.
If we search - we find that - The Aleppo Codex ( 920 AD ) and Leningrad Codex (c. 1008 AD ) were once the oldest known Hebrew language manuscripts of the Tanakh.
What did the Catholic Church do with the Hebrew Manuscripts that Jerome used to translate from ?
Rome and Egypt should have at least a handful of crumbled dust and rotten fragments of manuscripts to show for - concerning what they used to translate the Septuagint from.
But everything before the 8 th and 9 th century has been completely trashed and destroyed.
Rome is the only place where most of the SEPTUAGINT manuscripts from the 4 th and 5 th centuries exist.
These are the only evidence for the SEPTUAGINT, The very SEPTUAGINT originators and holders and care - takers and preservers - are the very ones who destroyed all of early the Hebrew manuscripts.
In Adam Clarke's commentary on Psalm 14 he notes: "Yet IT HAS BEEN CONTENDED, PARTICULARLY BY ST. JEROME, THAT PAUL DID NOT QUOTE THEM (the verses in Romans 3:10-18) from this Psalm; but...he collected from different parts several passages that bore upon the subject, and united them here....AND THAT SUCCEEDING COPYISTS, FINDING THEM IN ROMANS INSERTED THEM INTO THE SEPTUAGINT, from which it was presumed they had been lost.
Clarke continues - It does not appear that they made a part of this Psalm in Origen's Hexapla. In the portions that still exist of this Psalm there is not a word of these additional verses referred to in that collection, neither here nor in the parallel Psalm 53."
in 380 A.D - Jerome began to consult the Hebrew texts. Here Jerome claimed that The available SEPTUAGINT borrowed whole verses from the already completed N.T. text, and transplanted them back into their SEPTUAGINT version.
CHARACTERISTICS OF ST. JEROME'S WORK
Jerome then began to write several works on the supremacy of the Hebrew texts over the various Greek translations. Jerome writes: “It would be tedious now to enumerate, what great additions and omissions the Septuagint has made, and all the passages which in church-copies are marked with daggers and asterisks [symbols indicating words present in the Greek but absent in the Hebrew, and vice versa].
[ Jerome's Letter LVII]”
The SEPTUAGINT was written - AFTER the New Testament. Some of the New Testament was inserted / placed back into The SEPTUAGINT O.T. translation
The SEPTUAGINT translators took the already completed New Testament writings and transplanted them back into their Greek translation. Just like the Douay Rheims Catholics Translators of 1582 - also - transplanted the Greek word “ Christ “ back into their English Old Testament, numerous times.
They are taking NT – Greek - verses and inserting them word for word in their Greek translation when NO Hebrew text anywhere exist for the way these New Testament verses are written. They got them directly from the New Testament -
Also - If the acclaimed Pre-Christ SEPTUAGINT already existed and was spread and used by thousands of people - why, after the New Testament was completed, did at least three or four different men ( Origen, Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotian ) attempt to make new Greek translations between 140 A.D. and 240 A.D.?
Why was the Roman Catholic Church still attempting to make 5 or 6 new different Greek Old Testaments. ?
All copies of the SEPTUAGINT are the editorial work of Origen from the 3 rd century. This is the only manuscript source that reflects anything that resembles from what the SEPTUAGINT was copied from.
There are no Hebrew manuscripts that reflect the SEPTUAGINT contradictions that compare to the Masoretic texts. AND there are no Hebrew manuscripts that reflect the SEPTUAGINT's contradictions between different the Greek variant copies of the SEPTUAGINT itself.
The only manuscripts for The SEPTUAGINT in any bulk volume whatsoever { STILL INCOMPLETE AS AN EARLY TEXT } these are The Codex Vaticanus (Vatican Library), dating from about 350 AD.
The Vatican has added pages to make the collection over the centuries, it contains 617 leaves that have been added, INSERTED into the collection.
Also - The Codex Sinaiticus. in 1933 the British Museum purchased this fourth-century Codex from the Soviet Government for about $500,000. Even these are incomplete scriptures filled with thousands and thousands of contradictions and errors.
When we speak of lack of proof - the SEPTUAGINT has no proof to disprove - just a fragmented and broken and contradicting void of a molding and building and injecting and inserting pages to eventually complete a Greek Old Testament - that did not exist as a completed OT book until 350 to 500 years after Yahashua.
THESE FACTS WILL NEVER BE DISPROVEN. Concerning the SEPTUAGINT - there are no facts nor evidence pertaining about the SEPTUAGINT itself - to even review.
Just an empty void that Trinitarians imagine and demand is filled with their finished works.
Last edited by mensaguy; 06-21-2021 at 03:55 PM..
Reason: Don't use red text.
I have no hard feelings or bias discussing the facts of history, this is the evidence in history that shows the path leading to exactly what we have today. I love Trinitarians just as much as I love any other Muslim or anyone of any other faith.
But we can not ignore that Trinitarians and Muslims together have completely destroyed everything they could concerning the translating of scriptures into a modern / updated language for the last 2000 years.
this is all I was trying to say. - My ancestors were not perfect.. however - -
The miracle of preservation is that the Trinitarians and Muslims failed.
The fact, is there is not a spec or trace of any proof whatsoever concerning the Septuagint to explain or even EXCUSE WHY - the Genesis account has Mathusala living through the flood but was * never*
on the ark - and that he lived 14 years after the flood.
There are no Greek variants or manuscripts that support that this textual error occured.
There are no manuscripts of the Septuagint before 300 to 500 years after Yahashua that exist as a completed work supporting The Greek Septuagint.
The Vaticanus is the earliest complete Greek Old Testament - along with the Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus these have all been dated to the 4th and 5th Centuries AD - after Yahashua.
REGARDING THE Masoretic Text
There were 860 differences between Ben Naphtali and Ben Asher Bibles - who were the two main families of Bibles produced / duplicated / copied - by the Jews called The Masoretes - - Masoretic Texts
These 860 differences are only referring to the writing style of where the placing of the accents = markings are used, also differences between the vowels, accents, and consonantal spelling.
The differences between the two Masorites - do not reflect in any way two different views, contradictions or personal opinions; the two rivals represent different schools of language structure. .
This website - explains this in complete detail.
BEN NAPHTALI - JewishEncyclopedia.com
The message is the same message - As the Hebrew language was being attacked and changing and the Jews were being scattered around the world – the Hebrew Language began to change in various locations in diacritical markings is the vowels, the accents, and consonantal spellings and parts of speech. THIS HAS NOTHING to do with any contradictions in the message - when two schools of language are under – developing a difference in their structure of a SPOKEN language.
This does not change the message intended - when the writer and reader understanding the adaptations in the language structure read the Bible based on the intent of the writer. / copyist.
The Problem with the Greek Old Testament Translations - is that they most all are in complete contradiction with one another and most of them are incomplete.
Until the Latin / Italian word " Septuagint " appears in the 4 th century - there never was a complete Greek Old Testament known anywhere whatsoever available for any translator to use - even Jerome. Jerome even stated this fact when he translated the Bible into Latin.
The name Septuagint is a Latin word = from the Latin septuaginta, - meaning = “70”
after Christ - many Egyptian and Roman citizens were allowed to possess ONLY GREEK Old Testament verses.
All Hebrew Bibles were burned, banned by the Trinitarians and posessing or translating Hebrew Texts was punishable by death and torture and exile.
Rome and Egypts Trinitarians produced and promoted the Septuagint. While exterminating and destroying the Hebrew Bible.
The Septuagint is filled with many errors and falsehoods-
The Goliath Giant in the Septuagint was only six feet tall. This is not a giant !
Giants are not merely 5 to 6 feet tall.
The Torah in Hebrew says he was a giant, standing nearly 9 - 10 feet tall. These type of major differences are exactly why the Septuagint was written - to undermine and change and alter the Bible and cause people to have argumentive differences and doubts concerning God's word.
The Septuagint goes through the Old Testament making little contradictory changes such as placing Mathusala as having lived for nearly 15 years beyond / past the date of flood event, but yet - was never on the ark.
The Septuagint also says literally - that angels are called " The Sons Of God " but The Masoretic Hebrew never says this - The Sons Of God are never once described as Angels. - - God said in the New Testament that no Angel has never, ever been known - to be called His Son.
One of the major problems with The Septuagint - is that we do not have anything like it in the original language. The Septuagint has no original Hebrew manuscripts to show from what it was translated from.
All that is claimed is that seventy Jews who shut themselves and hid themselves in one single location produced The Septuagint (for Ptolemy king of Egypt.
But to hide the fact that they had no manuscripts, they made up and added to the story that they received inspiration for the translation from the holy spirit -
The fact is …
The most stunning reality is that Jerome originally started off pretended that there was a Greek translation of The Old testament - but once he dove into his translation project he found that there was next to nothing - VALID or complete - in Greek whatsoever - concerning the Old Testament. So Jerome turned to the Hebrew Masoretic Text manuscripts. was the Hebrew texts which were the inspired words of God.
What is stunning about the whole situation is that Jerome and His Catholic Church did not even preserve the original Hebrew manuscripts from which he had translated from.
THIS IS ASTONISHING - think of it
Jerome and His Catholic Church did not even preserve the original Hebrew manuscripts from which he had translated from.
The Catholic Church preserved Jerome's writings that tell-all - all about his problems with using the Greek texts. But they did not preserve any of the Hebrew texts that Jerome claims were so vital and critical and helpful in translating the Bible into Latin.
The real question is -
AND WHY DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEED TO MAKE ANOTHER LATIN TRANSLATION TO CORRECT THE PREVIOUS CORRUPTED LATIN TRANSLATION ?
This means the previous version of the Latin Bible had been corrupted while - IN THE VATICAN. !
or the perhaps the Catholic Church did not have a bible for 400 years - or maybe did not exist for 400 years after Christ.
THIS IS THE CRITICAL THINKING THAT PROVES THAT THE SEPTUAGINT IS A TOTAL FRAUD AND TRINITARISN WILL HEAR NON OF IT.
If we search - we find that - The Aleppo Codex ( 920 AD ) and Leningrad Codex (c. 1008 AD ) were once the oldest known Hebrew language manuscripts of the Tanakh.
What did the Catholic Church do with the Hebrew Manuscripts that Jerome used to translate from ?
Rome and Egypt should have at least a handful of crumbled dust and rotten fragments of manuscripts to show for - concerning what they used to translate the Septuagint from.
But everything before the 8 th and 9 th century has been completely trashed and destroyed.
Rome is the only place where most of the SEPTUAGINT manuscripts from the 4 th and 5 th centuries exist.
These are the only evidence for the SEPTUAGINT, The very SEPTUAGINT originators and holders and care - takers and preservers - are the very ones who destroyed all of early the Hebrew manuscripts.
In Adam Clarke's commentary on Psalm 14 he notes: "Yet IT HAS BEEN CONTENDED, PARTICULARLY BY ST. JEROME, THAT PAUL DID NOT QUOTE THEM (the verses in Romans 3:10-18) from this Psalm; but...he collected from different parts several passages that bore upon the subject, and united them here....AND THAT SUCCEEDING COPYISTS, FINDING THEM IN ROMANS INSERTED THEM INTO THE SEPTUAGINT, from which it was presumed they had been lost.
Clarke continues - It does not appear that they made a part of this Psalm in Origen's Hexapla. In the portions that still exist of this Psalm there is not a word of these additional verses referred to in that collection, neither here nor in the parallel Psalm 53."
in 380 A.D - Jerome began to consult the Hebrew texts. Here Jerome claimed that The available SEPTUAGINT borrowed whole verses from the already completed N.T. text, and transplanted them back into their SEPTUAGINT version.
CHARACTERISTICS OF ST. JEROME'S WORK
Jerome then began to write several works on the supremacy of the Hebrew texts over the various Greek translations. Jerome writes: “It would be tedious now to enumerate, what great additions and omissions the Septuagint has made, and all the passages which in church-copies are marked with daggers and asterisks [symbols indicating words present in the Greek but absent in the Hebrew, and vice versa].
[ Jerome's Letter LVII]”
The SEPTUAGINT was written - AFTER the New Testament. Some of the New Testament was inserted / placed back into The SEPTUAGINT O.T. translation
The SEPTUAGINT translators took the already completed New Testament writings and transplanted them back into their Greek translation. Just like the Douay Rheims Catholics Translators of 1582 - also - transplanted the Greek word “ Christ “ back into their English Old Testament, numerous times.
They are taking NT – Greek - verses and inserting them word for word in their Greek translation when NO Hebrew text anywhere exist for the way these New Testament verses are written. They got them directly from the New Testament -
Also - If the acclaimed Pre-Christ SEPTUAGINT already existed and was spread and used by thousands of people - why, after the New Testament was completed, did at least three or four different men ( Origen, Aquila, Symmachus and Theodotian ) attempt to make new Greek translations between 140 A.D. and 240 A.D.?
Why was the Roman Catholic Church still attempting to make 5 or 6 new different Greek Old Testaments. ?
All copies of the SEPTUAGINT are the editorial work of Origen from the 3 rd century. This is the only manuscript source that reflects anything that resembles from what the SEPTUAGINT was copied from.
There are no Hebrew manuscripts that reflect the SEPTUAGINT contradictions that compare to the Masoretic texts. AND there are no Hebrew manuscripts that reflect the SEPTUAGINT's contradictions between different the Greek variant copies of the SEPTUAGINT itself.
The only manuscripts for The SEPTUAGINT in any bulk volume whatsoever { STILL INCOMPLETE AS AN EARLY TEXT } these are The Codex Vaticanus (Vatican Library), dating from about 350 AD.
The Vatican has added pages to make the collection over the centuries, it contains 617 leaves that have been added, INSERTED into the collection.
Also - The Codex Sinaiticus. in 1933 the British Museum purchased this fourth-century Codex from the Soviet Government for about $500,000. Even these are incomplete scriptures filled with thousands and thousands of contradictions and errors.
When we speak of lack of proof - the SEPTUAGINT has no proof to disprove - just a fragmented and broken and contradicting void of a molding and building and injecting and inserting pages to eventually complete a Greek Old Testament - that did not exist as a completed OT book until 350 to 500 years after Yahashua.
THESE FACTS WILL NEVER BE DISPROVEN. Concerning the SEPTUAGINT - there are no facts nor evidence pertaining about the SEPTUAGINT itself - to even review.
Just an empty void that Trinitarians imagine and demand is filled with their finished works.
The oldest manuscripts of the Septuagint include 2nd-century-BCE fragments of Leviticus and Deuteronomy (Rahlfs nos. 801, 819, and 957) and 1st-century-BCE fragments of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and the Twelve Minor Prophets (Alfred Rahlfs nos. 802, 803, 805, 848, 942, and 943). Relatively-complete manuscripts of the Septuagint postdate the Hexaplar recension, and include the fourth-century-CE Codex Vaticanus and the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus. These are the oldest-surviving nearly-complete manuscripts of the Old Testament in any language; the oldest extant complete Hebrew texts date to about 600 years later, from the first half of the 10th century.[²⁸
28] Ernst Würthwein, The Text of the Old Testament, trans. Errol F. Rhodes, Grand Rapids, Mich.: Wm. Eerdmans, 1995
We have fragments of the Septuagint dated to the 2nd century BC. Scholarship refutes your claims that the Septuagint didn't exist until after the time of Christ.
Your claims both about the Septuagint and Trinitarians are nonsense.
1.) The Jewish Talmud/Mishnah long ago exposed the Masoretic texts as being a fraud, thus these texts cannot be used for the Torah/Tanakh.
The Haaretz article (a Jewish publication) "Israeli Scholars Discover Corrections, Erasures, Revisions in Oldest Biblical [Masoretic] Manuscript" bolsters what the Talmud/Mishnah says about the Masoretic texts and that they were complied by incompetent people.
Jewish Eupolemus and Demetrius the Chronicler used texts from the 2nd to 3rd century BC time period, and not the unreliable medieval Masoretic texts, that aligned closely with the far older Paleo Hebrew and against the Masoretic texts for Genesis 5 and 11.
2.) The Masoretes had an agenda whereas Eupolemus and Demetrius, for example, who lived long before Christ, did not have one.
The far older than the Masoretic texts - the Paleo Hebrew - align more closely with the Septuagint texts, thus the Septuagint is therefore more reliable. Bolstereing this are Jewish Eupolemus and Demetrius.
It is common knowledge the Masoretes altered numerous texts to try and make Shem be Melchizedek but the aforementioned and the Dead Sea Scrolls exposed them as being frauds.
3.) Aound 250 B.C. seventy rabbis translated the sacred texts into Greek. This translation was not a bootleg edition. The project was approved by the High Priest and the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. The Septuagint, the translation of the seventy, was an official document.
A Hebrew Bible exists today. It is used by Jews everywhere. It is called the Masoretic text. It was compiled around 700 A.D.*It is almost one thousand years newer than the Septuagint.*The rabbis who compiled the Masoretic text were not accountable to the High Priest in Jerusalem. There no longer was a High Priest. The rabbis who compiled the Masoretic text were not accountable to the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. There no longer was a Sanhedrin. The Masoretic texts are bootleg texts.
4.) There was no controversy about the integrity of the Septuagint from 250 B.C. until 135 A. D.
What had happened to provoke dissatisfaction with the Septuagint among the Jews?
Annas and Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin had rejected the messianic claims of Jesus. The New Testament documents had been written and were circulating by A.D. 70. The Jews knew that the credibility of the Christian Gospels depended on the credibility of the Septuagint.* Something had to be done.
Around 95 A.D. Rabbi Akiva, who later proclaimed Bar Kochba as the messiah, hired a man named Aquila to translate a Hebrew to Greek version of the Old Testament that would undermine the messianic claims of Jesus found in the Septuagint. Some scholars believe that the Masoretic text was based in part on this tendentious translation by Aquila. Justin Martyr said there was altering of scriptures by Jewish people in his time period, but thankfully the Dead Sea Scrolls, which align far more with the Septuagint than they do with the Masoretic texts, are bringing things into the light.
5.) Ergo Sum, by using the more ancient Dead Sea Scrolls, which align far more with the Septuagint, along with using the Samaritan Pentateuch, and using the Aramaic Targums which align far more with the Septuagint than they do with the Masoretic texts, and using the Pes hitta and numerous Septuagint codices - with all of the aforementioned being far older than the medieval Masoretic texts, problems are worked out and we no longer need the unreliable and fraudulent medieval Masoretic texts.
Last edited by Ray Mack; 06-21-2021 at 07:46 PM..
Reason: A few spelling mistakes
I am thankful for the time that you give in discussing this topic with me.
I understand that you firmly believe that the Pre Anointing Septuagint did exist as a completed work and I do respect this and would never want to disrespect your faith or materialistically hinder or physically stand in your way.
However, your response finally confirms exactly what I have been saying all along.
Yes yes - yes sir - exactly as I said,
there are mostly tiny teeny shreds and shards of little pieces.
Itty bitty bits and tiny pieces of little fragments that Trinitarians will pretend to crossword puzzle together.
Every single little tiny piece of anything - anything ranging from the size of a thumbnail to the size of a playing card - this is what Trinitarians will label and name and call and deceivingly identify these little fragments as a parchment roll or they will call it a manuscript.
The Fact Remains.
The Greek Septuagint has absolutely no valid proof of being completed before nearly 300 - 500 years after Christ.
This is the fact. There never was any proof of a Greek Septuagint. Meaning = There was and “ IS “ no real verifiable valid proof that there was a set of the ENTIRE (complete) Septuagint Translation of the Septuagint before nearly 500 AD.
NOTHING
it is all in your imagination - it does not exist.
Go to the website - see the examples and look at what is shown for evidence of these fragments of the Septuagint
There is nothing that shows any validation that the Septuagint existed before the Roman Catholic Church existed 300 to 400 or even 500 years after Yahashua.
All Trinitarians would have to do is post a website link - showing the overwhelming evidence online = the photos and snapshots or even copies of these massive amounts of Septuagint pages that vindicate a fully completed Septuagint existing even from before 500 AD
- but none were saved - the evidence was not preserved
And this tells everything. Trinitarians did not even attempt to preserve anything whatsoever concerning the Septuagint - Everything that has been found has been an accident and not an intentional preservation finding
Please let me provide you with a perfect example of what Trinitarians are attempting to do.
The trinitarian will tell you a story that “ The whole Bible was translated into Old French in the 13th Century. “
But Trinitarians are attempting to deceive you.
What they do not tell you is - THAT ALTHOUGH THIS MANUSCRIPT WAS PRODUCED IN THE FIFTEENTH CENTURY, the text of this Old French 13th Century Bible -
is a copy of a thirteenth-century French translation of the Latin Vulgate,
And this is what we are seeing here, people are taking the idea or fantasy of an “ Old Latin 13 th Century Bible “ and waiting until the 1500 s - and finally translating the Bible into French.
They use the idea of the " OLD FRENCH LANGUAGE THAT EXISTED IN THE 13 th Century and
call this book - a 13 th Century French Bible "
But they are making the translation in the 15 th century - pretending that a 13 th Century French Bible existed.
And uninformed people go about claiming today that this is a “ 13 th Century French Bible “
This is a Bible Translation of the LATIN 13 th Century Bible - that was Translated into French in the 1500 s.
This is exactly what Trinitarians will do - they are deceivers.
The Facts remain.
Outside of Latin / Italian
There is not a single complete Bible - nor a single completed book of the Bible that has ever been proven to have been translated between the first century and the late 1400 s
A list of Bible Translations can be mentioned as a list from the scattered remains of partial fragments of single pages and attempts to produce partial chapters and incomplete books -
These, are not proofs whatsoever, that a complete Bible was translated anywhere.
Yes there have been independent individuals who have attempted to produce Bible translations but they never have been proven to have succeeded in completing even half of a Bible translation because their translations were being burned, destroyed the Translators were being tortured and killed.
All we have are partial chapters of partial books and tiny fragments and re edited editions hundreds and hundreds of years later, in the 14 th and 15 centuries and onward.
A scattered collection that have been found scattered across the Middle East and Europe.
This is as far as the Production of “ the idea of a Complete WHOLE CORRECTLY TRANSLATED BIBLE “ was permitted to go to. Bibles that were never completed and all that remains are scattered fragments and scattered pages of failed attempts. This is not a Bible.
The Greek OT Septuagint Bible was supposed to have been translated hundreds of years before Christ.
AGAIN
The 10th Century New Testament - The West Saxon - Germanic Bible.
This existence of this Bible Translation is today - a rumor of a supposedly translated Bible.
A man named Wulfila reputedly { is reported } to have translated the whole Germanic Bible except the Books of Kings, but only fragments of the translation have been preserved, and none of the surviving manuscripts are complete.
Slightly more than half of the New Testament is extant today.
So what do we have here ?
We have another rumor, story and tale about a 10 th century Germanic New Testament Bible that has never been proven to have been completed was never allowed to be circulated to the population and never was used by anyone to Translate the bible in the 14 th and 15 th centuries - when the Bible began to be allowed - COMPLETED and CIRCULATED.
This is because the Bibles were being burned faster than the Translation could even be completed by a single man or set of individuals - and the chance to circulate and spread the bible Translation was non - existent.
Also, The Religious Authority Governments - were going around claiming that these rumored Bibles people were attempting to translate, were false translations and this is why they were burning them and killing the Translators.
Yes there have been independent individuals who have attempted to produce Bible translations but they never succeeded in completed even half of a Bible translation.
All we have are partial pages and fragments of partial books or even a partial chapter -
and tiny fragments scattered in the wind that have been accidentally found scattered across the Middle East and Europe. Before the late 1400 s.
Trinitarians were not preserving the bible - they were finding random ways to fall in love with perverting the original message.
these random attempts are why there are thousands of fragments accidentally found scattered throughout Europe and the Middle East - Trinitarians never - never NEVER intended to preserve a single page of the Bible.
This is the most obvious fact that exists on the planet - Muslims are no different.
The entire idea and concept of a Completed Bible translation moving beyond the ancient Latin and Greek and into a modern real-time world language - this concept and idea - this is a total and a freak accident in the Trinitarian world.
A mistake - a trinitarian mistake that suddenly accidentally just happened to accidentally occured behind their backs.
nearly 2000 years after the book was written
Last edited by tripplelogicality; 06-21-2021 at 07:59 PM..
.
Go and subscribe to the websites, the Libraries, and the Universities that are pushing the propaganda for the Septuagint.
You pay a fee to find proof for Government funded Libraries, and the Universities to
show proof regarding the Septuagint
they will charge you a fee and take your money and you will not see anything different than what is already on the internet.
an absolute joke - this is how they promote their lies - taking your money and deceiving millions of people who never take the time or who can not afford to pay to see the non-existant validation for the libraries, and the University's validation of a Septuagint
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