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Mike: God is SPIRIT, LOVE & FIRE & LIGHT as well. These are not characteristics of our God, but His very essence. Shall we consider these qualities of our Father figurative as well?
No mike one of the reason Jesus came was to show humanity that God is a Father and we are sons of God, or sons of our Father. You seem to think that those who are adopted are not sons and the father that adopted them is not their father.
I would make a distinction between those who are "adoptive sons" through baptism and those who are not.
No mike one of the reason Jesus came was to show humanity that God is a Father and we are sons of God, or sons of our Father. You seem to think that those who are adopted are not sons and the father that adopted them is not their father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
I would make a distinction between those who are "adoptive sons" through baptism and those who are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
then you would rebuild the wall Jesus tore down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
That's ridiculous. Baptism is available for all; Jew or Gentile, man or woman, slave or free.
Because Paul makes the distinction. Not all are "children of God"; not all have been "adopted to sonship".
Not all have been baptized. Of those who have been baptized, not all "share in his sufferings" to "share in his glory". Many live according to the flesh (Romans 8:12-13).
Romans 8:14-17 "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."
No mike one of the reason Jesus came was to show humanity that God is a Father and we are sons of God, or sons of our Father. You seem to think that those who are adopted are not sons and the father that adopted them is not their father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
I would make a distinction between those who are "adoptive sons" through baptism and those who are not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
then you would rebuild the wall Jesus tore down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
That's ridiculous. Baptism is available for all; Jew or Gentile, man or woman, slave or free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Then why the distinction?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EscAlaMike
Because Paul makes the distinction. Not all are "children of God"; not all have been "adopted to sonship".
Not all have been baptized. Of those who have been baptized, not all "share in his sufferings" to "share in his glory". Many live according to the flesh (Romans 8:12-13).
Romans 8:14-17 "For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory."
Try to follow the conversation mike we have been talking about the Father son relationship. Now go back and read what you have said.
No mike one of the reason Jesus came was to show humanity that God is a Father and we are sons of God, or sons of our Father. You seem to think that those who are adopted are not sons and the father that adopted them is not their father.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
Try to follow the conversation mike we have been talking about the Father son relationship. Now go back and read what you have said.
Only the baptized are those who have been adopted as sons.
The unbaptized are children of wrath, children of the devil.
It is not appropriate to speak of the unbaptized as being children of God, unless only speaking in the most general sense in the fact that they were created by God in His Image.
Those who are baptized become children of God in a special way that does not apply to the unbaptized.
God's "Fatherhood" is figurative. When we say "God the Father", His "Fatherhood" is referenced primarily as His relation to God the Son (Jesus), although even that is a figurative descriptor as God the Father did not literally produce God the Son as offspring.
God's "Fatherhood" in relation to us humans is even more figurative, as God did not produce us biologically as offspring. That is more like the Mormon view that God begat us as "spirit babies". God is wholly Other and does not produce offspring.
God's fatherhood is absolutely not figurative -- not with respect to His Only Begotten Son and not with respect to us, either. It was when this important truth was lost that the core doctrines of Christianity started to become unmoored from their foundation.
We are, in fact, God's spirit offspring. The essence of our spirits is co-eternal with Him. I don't know exactly what you are meaning to say when you say, "spirit babies." The word, "babies" implies physicality that spirits don't have. He did beget our spirits, though, and in that sense we are not just His "creations" but His "children," and to put it more precisely, his "offspring." This is exactly what the scriptures teach.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
God's "Fatherhood" is figurative. When we say "God the Father", His "Fatherhood" is referenced primarily as His relation to God the Son (Jesus), although even that is a figurative descriptor as God the Father did not literally produce God the Son as offspring.
God's "Fatherhood" in relation to us humans is even more figurative, as God did not produce us biologically as offspring. That is more like the Mormon view that God begat us as "spirit babies". God is wholly Other and does not produce offspring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
God's fatherhood is absolutely not figurative -- not with respect to His Only Begotten Son and not with respect to us, either. It was when this important truth was lost that the core doctrines of Christianity started to become unmoored from their foundation.
We are, in fact, God's spirit offspring. The essence of our spirits is co-eternal with Him. I don't know exactly what you are meaning to say when you say, "spirit babies." The word, "babies" implies physicality that spirits don't have. He did beget our spirits, though, and in that sense we are not just His "creations" but His "children," and to put it more precisely, his "offspring." This is exactly what the scriptures teach.
Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
I understand and appreciate the LDS interpretation, but I'm sticking with my post above
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