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There is a place for scoundrels. Take Howard Storm's example, he had an out of body experience (died) after internal bleeding and sepsis. Most of these souls (bad people in real life) don't even give God any chance. They stay in a place of dread and remorse, blackness. Praying wasn't even an option for Storm (his book is - My Descent into Death). So until these miserable souls cry out to God, they stay there but it is NOT FOREVER. May seem like it because time stops on the other side. Every single time one of them cry out, God (through Jesus) always comes to them. There is no place in existence outside of God's love because our very dwelling is literally inside of God.
A nurse who assisted in surgeries had an NDE....she kept rising up out of her body after a car wreck. She saw her body from above the wreck, then kept rising, above trees and rooftops...clouds beneath her...then the Earth itself...higher and higher. She saw our solar system, then our Milky Way galaxy, then multiple galaxies, beyond count until the entire universe looked like what she described looking just like a human nerve cell that only resides in our lungs.
Acts 17:28
For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
..Most of these souls (bad people in real life) don't even give God any chance. They stay in a place of dread and remorse, blackness.So until these miserable souls cry out to God, they stay there but it is NOT FOREVER..
So if Hitler or Bin Laden or evil murderers and crooks are in the "underworld" and they cry out to God to save them, will they go to heaven?
How would Christians in heaven feel about having Adolf or Bin Laden as their next door neighbour?
How would Christians in heaven feel about having Adolf or Bin Laden as their next door neighbour?
I'm no universalist as most everyone here knows; but I believe this is the wrong line of argument to take, Spike.
There is such a thing as true contrition and repentance, even for the most evil. How did the early believers feel about Paul the Christian-killer immediately following his conversion? I'm sure they were pretty skeptical, and some were no doubt angry; but they got over it.
So if Hitler or Bin Laden or evil murderers and crooks are in the "underworld" and they cry out to God to save them, will they go to heaven?
How would Christians in heaven feel about having Adolf or Bin Laden as their next door neighbour?
Good grief Spike. Our God takes the most rotten and depraved chief of sinners and changes them from the inside out. Please tell our Father you will not tolerate them as "your next door neighbor."
"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure--to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
So if Hitler or Bin Laden or evil murderers and crooks are in the "underworld" and they cry out to God to save them, will they go to heaven?
How would Christians in heaven feel about having Adolf or Bin Laden as their next door neighbour?
Spike, say you murder someone. You die. Your life review is played. You judge yourself. Your judgement...in your next life on Earth, you will be murdered the same way you brutally took an innocent life. Your call. We judge ourselves fairly, harshly if needed.
There is such a thing as true contrition and repentance, even for the most evil. How did the early believers feel about Paul the Christian-killer immediately following his conversion? I'm sure they were pretty skeptical, and some were no doubt angry; but they got over it.
True repentance is good, like Paul and the thief on the cross next to Jesus.
But the danger is that many evil nasty people think "If I find myself in hell or an "underworld" after I die, i'll be able to get out by simply telling God I repent".
They don't seem to realise that they have to truly repent BEFORE they die.
After all, when Lazarus found himself in hell and wanted to warn his family about it he was told it's impossible to get out because "there is a great gulf fixed".
So the moral seems to be that once anybody's in hell or an "underworld", they're there to stay, and to think otherwise is a satanic notion.
True repentance is good, like the thief on the cross next to Jesus did.
But the danger is that many evil nasty people think "If I find myself in hell or an "underworld" after I die, i'll be able to get out by simply telling God I repent".
They don't seem to realise that they have to truly repent BEFORE they die.
After all, when Lazarus found himself in hell and wanted to warn his family about it he was told it's impossible to get out because "there is a great gulf fixed".
So the moral seems to be that once anybody's in hell or an "underworld", they're there to stay, and to think otherwise is a satanic notion.
Doesn't work that way Spike. The moral of the story is....you get into heaven on account of who you are, not your beliefs. If that bad person doesn't have a change of heart, they stay put. But think A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens. People do change. There are no injustices to be worried about.
True repentance is good, like Paul and the thief on the cross next to Jesus.
But the danger is that many evil nasty people think "If I find myself in hell or an "underworld" after I die, i'll be able to get out by simply telling God I repent".
They don't seem to realise that they have to truly repent BEFORE they die.
After all, when Lazarus found himself in hell and wanted to warn his family about it he was told it's impossible to get out because "there is a great gulf fixed".
So the moral seems to be that once anybody's in hell or an "underworld", they're there to stay, and to think otherwise is a satanic notion.
I agree with you. We have no indication from Scripture or Tradition that the grace necessary for repentance will be made available to us after death.
So if somebody has jewish, muslim, hindu or atheistic etc beliefs will they still get into heaven despite rejecting Jesus?
Spike: Let not your old heart be troubled!
"That in/en the Name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Shall bow = kampto
To bow in worship & honour.
The scope of kampto =
Everything in....
Heaven.
Earth.
The underworld.
Turn to me and be helped - saved! - everyone, whoever and wherever you are. I am God, the only God there is, the one and only. I promise in my own name: Every word out of my mouth does what it says. I never take back what I say. Everyone is going to end up kneeling before me. Everyone is going to end up saying of me, 'Yes! salvation and strength are in God!'" All who have raged against him will be brought before him, disgraced by their unbelief.
Shall bow = תִּכְרַע
To bow down in worship.
To cause to bow down.
To sink prostrate.
Not by perfunctory genuflections: en/in the Name of all names.
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