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Only God knows who they are, for He made them. they are also called vessels of wrath, and He authored their being Rom 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
See those words formed and made in Vs 20 ? Those are creation words:
to produce, construct, form, fashion,
God made some of mankind to be fitted for wrath and destruction, and some to be vessels of mercy and eternal glory.
I dont know who they are, I just share the truth with anyone I have opportunity to, but the point here is, its wrong to give people a false hope that everybody going to heaven, when scripture doesnt teach that.
Hi Brightfame, Regarding destruction. and the different vessels, etc. I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you just need to see it in a new light. I'm sure God has brought you out of one meaning and INTO a much deeper meaning before on other subjects. Maybe, in time, God will give you a deeper meaning on the verses above. I posted the following, on this forum 12 years ago... (time flies.)
But I said it better back then, probably than I could manage to put into words today, so I'm re-posting it:
-------------------------------------------
I think there is just a misunderstanding that is present that people don't realize that all of the verses that have to do with the "wicked being destroyed" the "the wicked shall perish", etc. we are ALL part of this.
That within us that is NON-LOVE is perishing. When you cast judgement on all those sinners around you... it always makes me almost laugh inside because brothers and sisters... you are casting JUDGEMENT ON YOURSELF right along with those you judge. Judge not lest ye be judged. You judge your neighbor, you are judging yourself. Because ALL have both MEN inside of them. All have the carnal man within that is perishing.
And you rapture folks...
two men in a field, one is taken... the other is left behind..
hmmm. That's not BOB the sinner and JOHN the saint in a field. It's not two different human beings. It's YOU and your carnal nature. Perhaps there is some further meaning beyond this, but this is definitely a major way that I see that verse.
Someone mentioned about not living how you want or that it doesn't matter or whatever if all are saved. You can do whatever you want... but it's like you telling your child "Son, you can keep walking into that forest fire if you want... but I love you and I'm telling you that the closer you go, the more you keep walking that path towards the forest... it's not going to be good for you... you'll start to breathe in smoke, your face will become covered with soot, you'll start to cough and gag, keep going, your going to become injured".
It's about love. The two commands are about LOVE.
ALL of the law HANGS on these two commands.
Where LOVE rules, the LAW dissipates. Do you know why and do you understand this? It's because WHERE LOVE is, THERE IS NO NEED for the law, because there is NO LONGER ANY EVIL TO RESTRAIN.
LOVE pushes out the NEED for the LAW.
It's so SIMPLE!!
IT truly is.
Mankind makes it difficult and confusing.
It is NOT.
AT ALL.
"love God with all of your heart" - this command, I believe is put into place so that you will seek truth and GET to truth. You can't possibly love some freak sick god that will torment and torture people. It's IMPOSSIBLE to love a being who would torture your loved ones for all eternity, these neighbors GOD tells you to LOVE as yourself. The second command, love your neighbor as yourself.
When you start to see ALL of mankind, and ALL of His creation, the animals, the lesser creatures etc. as your neighbor, then you're starting to finally GET IT. So yes, you can do whatever you want, but EVENTUALLY the NON-LOVE within you is going to be refined away.
Living how you want... what is that? How do you want to live? There are many things that SEEM good on the outside, but lead to nothing but HEARTACHE and DESPAIR. God loves you and wants you to prosper. (no, we're not talking about money here or material things) prosper in your heart. He wants your HEART to prosper. When you love yourself, this creation that God created that is YOU, you respect yourself and want to honor yourself, and keep yourself from harm in any way. When you love God, TRULY love Him...this is possible when you realize just how GOOD He really is. Beyond your wildest imagination. When you realize how good He really is, and not this idiotic sicko god that mankind has come up with from their carnal NON-LOVING imagination, the love in your heart really does expand and your love for others grows unbelievably. The whole point is love. Love is the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. People act like it's some wishy washy little emotion... all flowery and butterflies and flimsy. That is why there is so much confusion. GOD IS LOVE.
LOVE created this UNIVERSE.
Sin is that which is NON-LOVE.
NON-LOVE is what is perishing in our hearts.
ALL of our hearts.
ALL will eventually LOVE God and love each other willingly and joyously.
peace.
---------------------------
and just to add onto that. Yes, I believe all are saved through Jesus Christ. But I also believe that we ALL will face judgement. The refining "fire" may not be pleasant. That which NEEDS to be destroyed within us, WILL be destroyed. But that is a good thing. A VERY good thing because we are in VERY good hands. Trust God. Have faith.
Hi Brightfame, Regarding destruction. and the different vessels, etc. I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you just need to see it in a new light. I'm sure God has brought you out of one meaning and INTO a much deeper meaning before on other subjects. Maybe, in time, God will give you a deeper meaning on the verses above. I posted the following, on this forum 12 years ago... (time flies.)
But I said it better back then, probably than I could manage to put into words today, so I'm re-posting it:
-------------------------------------------
I think there is just a misunderstanding that is present that people don't realize that all of the verses that have to do with the "wicked being destroyed" the "the wicked shall perish", etc. we are ALL part of this.
That within us that is NON-LOVE is perishing. When you cast judgement on all those sinners around you... it always makes me almost laugh inside because brothers and sisters... you are casting JUDGEMENT ON YOURSELF right along with those you judge. Judge not lest ye be judged. You judge your neighbor, you are judging yourself. Because ALL have both MEN inside of them. All have the carnal man within that is perishing.
And you rapture folks...
two men in a field, one is taken... the other is left behind..
hmmm. That's not BOB the sinner and JOHN the saint in a field. It's not two different human beings. It's YOU and your carnal nature. Perhaps there is some further meaning beyond this, but this is definitely a major way that I see that verse.
Someone mentioned about not living how you want or that it doesn't matter or whatever if all are saved. You can do whatever you want... but it's like you telling your child "Son, you can keep walking into that forest fire if you want... but I love you and I'm telling you that the closer you go, the more you keep walking that path towards the forest... it's not going to be good for you... you'll start to breathe in smoke, your face will become covered with soot, you'll start to cough and gag, keep going, your going to become injured".
It's about love. The two commands are about LOVE.
ALL of the law HANGS on these two commands.
Where LOVE rules, the LAW dissipates. Do you know why and do you understand this? It's because WHERE LOVE is, THERE IS NO NEED for the law, because there is NO LONGER ANY EVIL TO RESTRAIN.
LOVE pushes out the NEED for the LAW.
It's so SIMPLE!!
IT truly is.
Mankind makes it difficult and confusing.
It is NOT.
AT ALL.
"love God with all of your heart" - this command, I believe is put into place so that you will seek truth and GET to truth. You can't possibly love some freak sick god that will torment and torture people. It's IMPOSSIBLE to love a being who would torture your loved ones for all eternity, these neighbors GOD tells you to LOVE as yourself. The second command, love your neighbor as yourself.
When you start to see ALL of mankind, and ALL of His creation, the animals, the lesser creatures etc. as your neighbor, then you're starting to finally GET IT. So yes, you can do whatever you want, but EVENTUALLY the NON-LOVE within you is going to be refined away.
Living how you want... what is that? How do you want to live? There are many things that SEEM good on the outside, but lead to nothing but HEARTACHE and DESPAIR. God loves you and wants you to prosper. (no, we're not talking about money here or material things) prosper in your heart. He wants your HEART to prosper. When you love yourself, this creation that God created that is YOU, you respect yourself and want to honor yourself, and keep yourself from harm in any way. When you love God, TRULY love Him...this is possible when you realize just how GOOD He really is. Beyond your wildest imagination. When you realize how good He really is, and not this idiotic sicko god that mankind has come up with from their carnal NON-LOVING imagination, the love in your heart really does expand and your love for others grows unbelievably. The whole point is love. Love is the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. People act like it's some wishy washy little emotion... all flowery and butterflies and flimsy. That is why there is so much confusion. GOD IS LOVE.
LOVE created this UNIVERSE.
Sin is that which is NON-LOVE.
NON-LOVE is what is perishing in our hearts.
ALL of our hearts.
ALL will eventually LOVE God and love each other willingly and joyously.
peace.
---------------------------
and just to add onto that. Yes, I believe all are saved through Jesus Christ. But I also believe that we ALL will face judgement. The refining "fire" may not be pleasant. That which NEEDS to be destroyed within us, WILL be destroyed. But that is a good thing. A VERY good thing because we are in VERY good hands. Trust God. Have faith.
Only God knows who they are, for He made them. they are also called vessels of wrath, and He authored their being Rom 9:20-23
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
See those words formed and made in Vs 20 ? Those are creation words:
to produce, construct, form, fashion,
God made some of mankind to be fitted for wrath and destruction, and some to be vessels of mercy and eternal glory.
I dont know who they are, I just share the truth with anyone I have opportunity to, but the point here is, its wrong to give people a false hope that everybody going to heaven, when scripture doesnt teach that.
So there is NOTHING a person can do to be saved if they are serpent seed? What if they call upon Jesus?
75. “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in corruption, it is raised in glory...it is raised in power... it is raised a spiritual body.” 1 Cor. 15: 42-44
Paul, in his account of the resurrection, does not admit of the existence of sin in the immortal state. When he cries out triumphantly, “O death! where is your sting?”, he certainly means, that sin was absent, for “the sting of death is sin.”
76. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” 2 Cor. 5:19.
It is not said, that God was in Christ reconciling himself to the world, for he was never unreconciled to the world; but God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. By the world is undoubtedly all for whom Christ died. God was engaged in this work; he had appointed the means for its accomplishment; and we believe, under his wise direction, it will be done.
77. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal. 3:28, 29
According to what promise? According to the promise of God to Abraham, that in him, and his seed [Christ], all the nations, kindreds and families of the earth shall be blessed. In Christ, therefore, none of the distinctions are known of which Paul here speaks. “You are all one in Christ Jesus.” That point being settled, he adds, “and if you be Christ’s [as he has proved] then are you Abraham’s seed, (that is, not by lineal descent, but spiritually), and heirs according to the promise.”
Hi Brightfame, Regarding destruction. and the different vessels, etc. I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you just need to see it in a new light.
Oh No, I have the proper understanding of it, God created some of us humans in order to Glorify His Justice and manifest His Mercy on the Vessels of Mercy, He made them to punish them Justly for their sins, and that everlastingly. Thats the Truth my friend, Fear God
So there is NOTHING a person can do to be saved if they are serpent seed? What if they call upon Jesus?
No, nothing. They wont call on Jesus, not the True Jesus, they actually hate Him. Remember God said He was going to put enmity between the Two Seeds, the seed of the woman [Jesus Christ] and the seed of the serpent who is satan Look Gen 3:14-15
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
That word enmity means:
hatred hostility
And does Jesus sound like the serpet seed can be saved Matt 23:33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
75. “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in corruption, it is raised in glory...it is raised in power... it is raised a spiritual body.” 1 Cor. 15: 42-44
Paul, in his account of the resurrection, does not admit of the existence of sin in the immortal state. When he cries out triumphantly, “O death! where is your sting?”, he certainly means, that sin was absent, for “the sting of death is sin.”
76. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” 2 Cor. 5:19.
It is not said, that God was in Christ reconciling himself to the world, for he was never unreconciled to the world; but God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. By the world is undoubtedly all for whom Christ died. God was engaged in this work; he had appointed the means for its accomplishment; and we believe, under his wise direction, it will be done.
77. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal. 3:28, 29
According to what promise? According to the promise of God to Abraham, that in him, and his seed [Christ], all the nations, kindreds and families of the earth shall be blessed. In Christ, therefore, none of the distinctions are known of which Paul here speaks. “You are all one in Christ Jesus.” That point being settled, he adds, “and if you be Christ’s [as he has proved] then are you Abraham’s seed, (that is, not by lineal descent, but spiritually), and heirs according to the promise.”
All referring to Gods elect, not the seed of the serpent. The serpent seed isnt in the promise made to Abraham, that Promise is about Christ and His Seed. Are you insinuating the serpent seed is also Christs seed ? Thats like saying the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman are the same seed. Something wrong with that picture.
Oh No, I have the proper understanding of it, God created some of us humans in order to Glorify His Justice and manifest His Mercy on the Vessels of Mercy, He made them to punish them Justly for their sins, and that everlastingly. Thats the Truth my friend, Fear God
You dont understand the fear of God friend. God gives His People a heart to fear Him Jer 32:40
and I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Ps 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
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