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I think you may be hung up on the concept of eternity. When we have eternal life, that means something other than living forever from some point in time. Eternity goes back just as far as it goes forward. Every moment is composed of eternity. I think that is also part of becoming fully clothed.
Aionios life is not a length of time, or time focused, which ultimately shall be no more, but a quality of life centered in the Lord of all.
"This IS life everlasting that we may know You...."
Everlasting life = zoe aionios
When Jesus had thus spoken, He raised his eyes towards Heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Thy Son that the Son may glorify Thee; even as Thou hast given Him authority over all mankind, so that on all whom Thou hast given Him He may bestow the Life of the Ages. And in this consists the Life of the Ages—in knowing Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on earth, having done perfectly the work which by Thine appointment has been mine to do. And now, Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed."
"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..." -F. W. Weymouth
"Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free! He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth." -MSG
They don't like English either. In fact, they won't accept anything other than eternal torment. I think if they somehow found out beyond any doubt, they would probably be disappointed that UR is true. All these sinners, not like them of course, getting away with being naughty. Not fair they scream, not fair!
Nonsense! My Southern Baptist church shares the gospel with anyone who will listen, and like Heaven, we rejoice when souls are converted.
And, none of this answers the dilemna that is presented to the Universalist in Matthew 25:46.
That is, if, in Matthew 25:46, it is speaking of "age-abiding punishment", then by proxy, in John 3:16, the gospel of Jesus Christ only promises "age-abiding life".
Question: when age-abiding life ends, does the person who no longer has life have consciousness?
I would say that if he does, then his living in a state of death might just be described in holy scripture by such verses as Matthew 13:41-42 and Matthew 13:49-50.
If he does not, then he goes unconscious for all of eternity as soon as the age ends.
At least he doesn't have to go through the Great Tribulation in that scenario.
Because the Great Tribulation begins where the age of grace ends.
But if he continues to be conscious after the end of the age of grace, then he will go through the GT in a state of spiritual death. And thus, Revelation 14:9-11 will most assuredly be his condemnation.
Thus, in the Universalist gospel, the redeemed are ultimately condemned and those who are condemned by the words of holy scripture will have a period of age-abiding life after they have experienced age-abiding punishment; nevertheless after that period of age-abiding life there will be another age of age-abiding punishment.
Unless the dead have no consciousness, in which case the redeemed will simply die when the age of grace ends with the definition of losing all consciousness for the rest of eternity;
And what is to say that when the age of age-abiding punishment ends, those who were punished will enter into life?
For they also may very well lose all consciousness for the rest of eternity after having received age-abiding punishment. There is nothing in the Bible that says that they will enter into life after having been punished.
So, you would have to derive that doctrine out of your own fleshly imagination.
If those who come to the end of an age are conscious at the end of that age, then the redeemed will be conscious of being in a state of death after having received life for a mere age (the "age of grace", which may indeed possibly last for only another 50 years).
And, since those who receive "age-abiding punishment" are not promised life after their punishment has been completed, they also will be conscious of being in a state of death after they have received their punishment.
But if there is no consciousness in death, then both the punishment and the life, after death, will have its course and then the ones who have lived out those ages will enter into a state of being unconscous for the rest of eternity.
I think that I have covered every possible scenario, here.
If anyone can think of a different one that is more closely attuned with what I would call "good news", I invite them to present their scenario.
I know...
How about the scenario where everlasting means everlasting rather than age-abiding?
In that scenario, the redeemed (if not the unredeemed) at the very least will have everlasting life (as we define that term in the English language).
it does answer your question JFB our life in Christ is an endless life it is much more then aionios life which is based on the knowledge of God, it is the very life (endless ) essence of God within us.
the problem you are having is you keep trying to fit the salvation of all into your eternal torment box, it does not fit JBF. it is not age abiding punishment, its age abiding correction and once all have been corrected going beyond just the knowledge of God all will have the very life of God within the very endless life that Jesus has.
They don't like English either. In fact, they won't accept anything other than eternal torment. I think if they somehow found out beyond any doubt, they would probably be disappointed that UR is true. All these sinners, not like them of course, getting away with being naughty. Not fair they scream, not fair!
although some seem to be like that zero, not all that believe in eternal torment want anyone to enter hell as they see it. Just think about what you used to believe (if you ever believed in eternal torment) would your statement above be applied to you at that time? I don't think so brother, most people have a good heart but have been deceived into believing what they believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Nonsense! My Southern Baptist church shares the gospel with anyone who will listen, and like Heaven, we rejoice when souls are converted.
I believe you jimmie, like I have said before my parents were preachers who believed in eternal torment ( my dad has passed but my mom now believes in the salvation of all) and would rejoice when people came to God through Christ and would have been sad to think anyone would enter into hell.
Even though I firmly believe your view of hell is in total error, i also believe you teach it because you want people to be saved from your view of hell.
although some seem to be like that zero, not all that believe in eternal torment want anyone to enter hell as they see it. Just think about what you used to believe (if you ever believed in eternal torment) would your statement above be applied to you at that time? I don't think so brother, most people have a good heart but have been deceived into believing what they believe.
By this time a lot of men and women of questionable reputation were hanging around Jesus, listening intently. The Pharisees and religion scholars were not pleased, not at all pleased. They growled, “He takes in sinners and eats meals with them, treating them like old friends.”
Their grumbling triggered this story.
Suppose one of you had a hundred sheep and lost one. Wouldn’t you leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness and go after the lost one until you found it? When found, you can be sure you would put it across your shoulders, rejoicing, and when you got home call in your friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Celebrate with me! I’ve found my lost sheep!’ Count on it—there’s more joy in heaven over one sinner’s rescued life than over ninety-nine good people in no need of rescue. -MSG
It does answer your question JFB our life in Christ is an endless life it is much more then aionios life which is based on the knowledge of God, it is the very life (endless) essence of God within us.
The problem you are having is you keep trying to fit the salvation of all into your eternal torment box, it does not fit JBF. it is not age abiding punishment, its age abiding correction and once all have been corrected going beyond just the knowledge of God all will have the very life of God within the very endless life that Jesus has.
If he doesn't believe in a dictator god who damns people to his theological hell, then he will suffer cruel and unusual punishment, himself. He simply doesn't comprehend the meaning of correction, nor does he understand that the only thing which will perish are his ungodly traits, saving the man himself.
...our life in Christ is an endless life it is much more then aionios life which is based on the knowledge of God, it is the very life (endless ) essence of God within us.
Wow...what a powerful way to say it! And Paul tells us that all things are in Him.
Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Col 1:18 And himself is the head of the body—the assembly—who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things —himself—first,
Col 1:19 because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile the all things to himself—having made peace through the blood of his cross—through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
R2L has also been proclaiming these truth's for a long time in this thread. Blessings to both of you.
although some seem to be like that zero, not all that believe in eternal torment want anyone to enter hell as they see it. Just think about what you used to believe (if you ever believed in eternal torment) would your statement above be applied to you at that time? I don't think so brother, most people have a good heart but have been deceived into believing what they believe.
I believe you jimmie, like I have said before my parents were preachers who believed in eternal torment ( my dad has passed but my mom now believes in the salvation of all) and would rejoice when people came to God through Christ and would have been sad to think anyone would enter into hell.
Even though I firmly believe your view of hell is in total error, i also believe you teach it because you want people to be saved from your view of hell.
I know they don't enjoy anyone being lost but the question is, how can anyone live happily knowing, by just looking around your very house, neighborhood, stadium, etc. the vast majority of souls are in for a very rough ride. Must be burdensome living in that type of universe or eventually the pain wears off I guess.
Aionios life is not a length of time, or time focused, which ultimately shall be no more, but a quality of life centered in the Lord of all.
"This IS life everlasting that we may know You...."
Everlasting life = zoe aionios
When Jesus had thus spoken, He raised his eyes towards Heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Thy Son that the Son may glorify Thee; even as Thou hast given Him authority over all mankind, so that on all whom Thou hast given Him He may bestow the Life of the Ages. And in this consists the Life of the Ages—in knowing Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. I have glorified Thee on earth, having done perfectly the work which by Thine appointment has been mine to do. And now, Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed."
Couldn't rep you for this (it's weird that most of the time it won't let me) so I'll do it now .
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