Discussion of Christianity and its relationship to the LGBTQ community (crucified, hell)
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People of faith and religious leader are called to celebrate the presence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and ***** (LGBTQ) people in our congregations, local communities, and society at large. LGBTQ people are our neighbors, our congregants, and our religious leaders. People faith and religious leaders must help to create new understandings of sexual and gender diversity and promote justice for LGBTQ people in all areas of religious and public life.
WOW!
Hopefully, more of the hidebound denominations will manage to drag their heads out of their rectums and learn to like the smell of fresh air.
What they don't seem to be able to grasp is that when they are condemning an LGBTQ person, no matter how they pretty it up by grandly pretending to claim that they see it as no worse than other sins, they are saying that those persons themselves are a sin by virtue of their very existence, not because of what they have done. That's far more excremental than a position taken by human beings that a person should only love a person of the opposite gender. A human feeling of repulsion about another human based on who they are cannot possibly come from God.
Anyway, I don't think that they think they are hating Others, but it is the end result. There's no "but" after "Love your neighbor as yourself".
I am perfectly capable of loving my gay neighbors as myself, just as I am perfectly capable of loving my adulterous and pedophilic neighbors as myself. I hate to play the "some of my best friends" game, but absolutely my best friend in my twenties was a flamingly gay guy 15 years my senior. His homosexuality was a non-issue in our friendship, but it was nevertheless a sin. It is the homosexual party line that homosexuals are defined by their homosexuality, that it's their very essence, but this is simply not true. You've simply drunk the Kool-Aid. Homosexuality may have a genetic component, but it's a complex mix of factors and it can be addressed just like any other proclivity. I have proclivities towards some sins, but they don't define me and I am able with God's help not to let them ripen into active sin. I would say that for most heterosexual men lustful thoughts about women have a genetic component are are pretty well impossible to eliminate, but we don't insist they define us, that it shouldn't be deemed sin if we act upon them, or that the church should celebrate our need to copulate so long as the women are willing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2
Yep, I agree on the celebrate bit too
I am a person who thinks everyone has an intrinsic/essential nature that also develops over time with varying circumstances and experiences, and that it’s more about being respectful about any of our differences
That was just something I noticed when I followed Irkle’s link
It’s a difficult thing to bring about change of something that is deeply embedded in any culture, it creates animosity and over-reactions on all sides unfortunately
Christian doctrine regarding homosexuality isn't "deeply embedded" in culture. It's biblical. There is no need to "bring about change" unless you think Christian doctrine should shift with societal values, which would be 180 degrees unbiblical. Yes, the abhorrence of homosexuality, the criminalization of homosexuality, the persecution of homosexuals and the discrimination against homosexuals are deeply embedded in culture. They are not part of Christianity, and they should be rooted out. For a Christian to identify homosexuality as a sin, and refuse to countenance it, should not prevent the Christian from loving homosexuals as his neighbors and recognizing their intrinsic worth as human beings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801
Well, it is my hope that having this place for discussion of the subject will open up a dialogue and give food for thought to some. It is the most controversial social topic in Christianity in these times, just as slavery and translation of the Scriptures into "a language plainly understood by the people", and separation of religion and state were in previous times. Spiritual growth is usually accompanied by pain.
No, homosexuality isn't the most controversial social issue in Christianity at all. The Christian position is clear. The agenda of the homosexual community to dilute clear biblical doctrine and force not only the acceptance of homosexuality but even the celebration of it is what's extremely controversial - and should be. Those who bend to this pressure are abandoning Christian doctrine and entering into sin themselves by countenancing sin - simple as that.
People of faith and religious leader are called to celebrate the presence of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and ***** (LGBTQ) people in our congregations, local communities, and society at large. LGBTQ people are our neighbors, our congregants, and our religious leaders. People faith and religious leaders must help to create new understandings of sexual and gender diversity and promote justice for LGBTQ people in all areas of religious and public life.
WOW!
It's somewhat incongruous that the Orthodox paper I quoted and linked was featured on the Religious Institute site, because the RI is an LGBTQ and abortion lobbying organization and the conclusion of the Orthodox paper is diametrically opposed to the RI's mission, which emphasizes that homosexuality is neither sinful nor aberrant.
Here's another one, Homosexuality | Religious Institute. They seem to have a whole section of Orthodox papers that seem contrary to their own mission.
Consideration of the divine design and purpose of sex immediately reveals why homosexuality, adultery, fornication, prostitution, masturbation, and all other forms of sex outside of marriage are morally deviant. In none of these acts can the true realization of oneness in communion occur, because they are outside the God-established marital union, violations of it, or fundamentally disordered. All of these are true of homosexuality. Since the unitive drive for the experience of union is realized in the conjuntio oppositorum, the desire of man and woman to recreate their original oneness in Adam, it is clear that the desire for union with the same sex is a disordered passion. Something is very wrong when a male seeks to complete himself by union with another male. This is why the Apostle Paul argues that homosexuality is “against nature” (see Rom. 1:26-27). It is not just that the particular genital acts are ill fitted, unusual, and abhorrent. It is the fact that the very nature of the homosexual drive is at odds with how God created us as human beings, in His image, as male and female.
Over the past decade, I've increasingly grown in respect for the Orthodox Church, to the point that if I were forced to choose an affiliation it would be the Orthodox Church. The theological writings of the Orthodox are consistently scholarly, sophisticated, nuanced and theologically sound.
"Hate the sin but love the sinner" is a common phrase first attributed to Gandhi and reveals how Christians should approach their neighbor. Who is our neighbor? All mankind! To love the neighbor however, means to walk in truth towards them, to do what is right for them, to affirm what is good and holy on their behalf. This includes not countenancing sin by naming it as something else. No one who follows Christ can sanction the secular sellout to sin in adultery, fornication, gay-lesbian marriage or sexual relationships, polyamorous marriage, and so forth. Gay marriage and any other unblessed sexual activity in thought, word or deed is not the love that Christ extolled. For the Christian, God has revealed His will to us concerning sexual behavior and anyone who champions a rule other than the one revealed to us is not living a life in Christ.
I don't know why this thread has continued as long as it has, but the above quotation captures the essential point. Biblically and theologically, the Christian view of homosexuality is beyond dispute. Efforts to accommodate or even celebrate homosexuality within Christianity, through "creative" interpretation of the Bible passages or otherwise, are doomed to failure. In the words of the above paper, they are efforts to "countenance sin by naming it as something else." Those who do this are diluting their Christianity to conform to the world, precisely as the Bible condemns.
As we see on this thread, the traditional Christian position is not a popular one. Jesus himself made clear that this is to be expected; it's the price of following Jesus. The fact that something so consistently condemned (both secularly and religiously) as homosexuality is now celebrated, and that at least some Christians are joining in the celebration in the name of Christ, is not evidence of "enlightenment" but of the depravity the NT says will characterize the last days.
To be clear, I have no greater issue with homosexuality per se than I do with fornication, adultery, pedophilia and other sexual sins. What I have an issue with is the celebration of sin and the dilution of Christianity. If someone wants to say "Look, I know the Bible condemns homosexuality and this is the Christian doctrine, but I simply reject it in the name of social progress and modern morality," this is at least an honest position. It is, as I have said previously, the position of Dr. William Loader, the leading scholar on ancient sexual practices who acknowledges that Judaism at the time of Jesus condemned both the homosexual orientation and homosexual practices but nevertheless rejects this in the name of what he believes to be enlightened morality.
I respect your views and can offer no argument against them. We need to voice those views in our hearts and keep it to ourselves and our community that follow Jesus in the way we believe to be right and let those who disagree burn in Hell in the afterlife.
I am perfectly capable of loving my gay neighbors as myself, just as I am perfectly capable of loving my adulterous and pedophilic neighbors as myself. I hate to play the "some of my best friends" game, but absolutely my best friend in my twenties was a flamingly gay guy 15 years my senior. His homosexuality was a non-issue in our friendship, but it was nevertheless a sin. It is the homosexual party line that homosexuals are defined by their homosexuality, that it's their very essence, but this is simply not true. You've simply drunk the Kool-Aid. Homosexuality may have a genetic component, but it's a complex mix of factors and it can be addressed just like any other proclivity. I have proclivities towards some sins, but they don't define me and I am able with God's help not to let them ripen into active sin. I would say that for most heterosexual men lustful thoughts about women have a genetic component are are pretty well impossible to eliminate, but we don't insist they define us, that it shouldn't be deemed sin if we act upon them, or that the church should celebrate our need to copulate so long as the women are willing.
Christian doctrine regarding homosexuality isn't "deeply embedded" in culture. It's biblical. There is no need to "bring about change" unless you think Christian doctrine should shift with societal values, which would be 180 degrees unbiblical. Yes, the abhorrence of homosexuality, the criminalization of homosexuality, the persecution of homosexuals and the discrimination against homosexuals are deeply embedded in culture. They are not part of Christianity, and they should be rooted out. For a Christian to identify homosexuality as a sin, and refuse to countenance it, should not prevent the Christian from loving homosexuals as his neighbors and recognizing their intrinsic worth as human beings.
No, homosexuality isn't the most controversial social issue in Christianity at all. The Christian position is clear. The agenda of the homosexual community to dilute clear biblical doctrine and force not only the acceptance of homosexuality but even the celebration of it is what's extremely controversial - and should be. Those who bend to this pressure are abandoning Christian doctrine and entering into sin themselves by countenancing sin - simple as that.
No, it's only "as simple as that" from your point of view because you've persuaded yourself that accepting Christians are merely bending to some kind of external pressure. That's not the case. They are searching their souls and seeking God, and sometimes that brings us to a turning point where we see that what we once accepted as unquestionably right is wrong in the eyes of a compassionate and loving God.
Live by rules written down by a people long ago in a different culture, or live by the timeless directive to love one another.
I am perfectly capable of loving my gay neighbors as myself, just as I am perfectly capable of loving my adulterous and pedophilic neighbors as myself. I hate to play the "some of my best friends" game, but absolutely my best friend in my twenties was a flamingly gay guy 15 years my senior. His homosexuality was a non-issue in our friendship, but it was nevertheless a sin. It is the homosexual party line that homosexuals are defined by their homosexuality, that it's their very essence, but this is simply not true. You've simply drunk the Kool-Aid. Homosexuality may have a genetic component, but it's a complex mix of factors and it can be addressed just like any other proclivity. I have proclivities towards some sins, but they don't define me and I am able with God's help not to let them ripen into active sin. I would say that for most heterosexual men lustful thoughts about women have a genetic component are are pretty well impossible to eliminate, but we don't insist they define us, that it shouldn't be deemed sin if we act upon them, or that the church should celebrate our need to copulate so long as the women are willing.
Christian doctrine regarding homosexuality isn't "deeply embedded" in culture. It's biblical. There is no need to "bring about change" unless you think Christian doctrine should shift with societal values, which would be 180 degrees unbiblical. Yes, the abhorrence of homosexuality, the criminalization of homosexuality, the persecution of homosexuals and the discrimination against homosexuals are deeply embedded in culture. They are not part of Christianity, and they should be rooted out. For a Christian to identify homosexuality as a sin, and refuse to countenance it, should not prevent the Christian from loving homosexuals as his neighbors and recognizing their intrinsic worth as human beings.
No, homosexuality isn't the most controversial social issue in Christianity at all. The Christian position is clear. The agenda of the homosexual community to dilute clear biblical doctrine and force not only the acceptance of homosexuality but even the celebration of it is what's extremely controversial - and should be. Those who bend to this pressure are abandoning Christian doctrine and entering into sin themselves by countenancing sin - simple as that.
After the above and the previous efforts from IB with which to make his point - and despite all the responses that I could give and have given so many times previously - my only response right now is this:
The Bible is often used as a source of authority, but it is misleading to call it “the word of God”. In fact, Christianity teaches that the word of God is not scripture, it is Jesus Christ. As such, could it be said that IB and others who use the Bible for both 'loving and condemning' () are actually committing “bibliolatry” – worshipping the Bible rather than worshipping Jesus? For those who may know know this ...Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
If homosexuality WAS 'a thing' in His time it clearly was not a matter Jesus thought to raise. However, He DID speak of many other matters, including divorce, remarriage and adultery. But, not homosexuality. Really, what does this tell us?
No, it's only "as simple as that" from your point of view because you've persuaded yourself that accepting Christians are merely bending to some kind of external pressure. That's not the case. They are searching their souls and seeking God, and sometimes that brings us to a turning point where we see that what we once accepted as unquestionably right is wrong in the eyes of a compassionate and loving God.
Live by rules written down by a people long ago in a different culture, or live by the timeless directive to love one another.
After the above and the previous efforts from IB with which to make his point - and despite all the responses that I could give and have given so many times previously - my only response right now is this:
The Bible is often used as a source of authority, but it is misleading to call it “the word of God”. In fact, Christianity teaches that the word of God is not scripture, it is Jesus Christ. As such, could it be said that IB and others who use the Bible for both 'loving and condemning' () are actually committing “bibliolatry” – worshipping the Bible rather than worshipping Jesus? For those who may know know this ...Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
If homosexuality WAS 'a thing' in His time it clearly was not a matter Jesus thought to raise. However, He DID speak of many other matters, including divorce, remarriage and adultery. But, not homosexuality. Really, what does this tell us?
Your argument is because Jesus didn't mention it, then it's OK... therefore, stuff like bestiality, pedophilia, fentanyl abuse is permitted.
Intended design...
Matthew 19:4-6 - And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. (CAPS are NASB)
Affirming what's real kinda nukes all of the counterfeits.
And nobody worships the Bible instead of Christ. That has always been a nonsense argument.
After the above and the previous efforts from IB with which to make his point - and despite all the responses that I could give and have given so many times previously - my only response right now is this:
The Bible is often used as a source of authority, but it is misleading to call it “the word of God”. In fact, Christianity teaches that the word of God is not scripture, it is Jesus Christ. As such, could it be said that IB and others who use the Bible for both 'loving and condemning' () are actually committing “bibliolatry” – worshipping the Bible rather than worshipping Jesus? For those who may know know this ...Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
If homosexuality WAS 'a thing' in His time it clearly was not a matter Jesus thought to raise. However, He DID speak of many other matters, including divorce, remarriage and adultery. But, not homosexuality. Really, what does this tell us?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Your argument is because Jesus didn't mention it, then it's OK... therefore, stuff like bestiality, pedophilia, fentanyl abuse is permitted.
Oooow ...did that hurt? There's no need to smack yourself on my behalf, DRob.
Whatever the reason behind Jesus not saying anything about the other things you mentioned, it's completely irrelevant. We're not discussing those issues so there's no reason to bring them up. THIS thread concerns Christianity and its relationship to the LGBTQ community.
And so, I repeat ...Jesus (after whom 'Christianity' was named) never said anything about homosexuality. There may be people on this thread - gay or straight or whatever - who didn't know that fact before I told them. You see, DRob, the way modern-day Christianity has approached this topic, people might be forgiven for believing that homosexuality is condemned on every page of the Bible. However, in actuality, there are ONLY a half-dozen places in the ENTIRE BIBLE pertaining to what some may construe to be references to homosexuality. And, those half-dozen places in the Bible have been covered many times and dismissed as not condemning homosexuality per se at all ...just as they should be. Christianity has no case against homosexuality but it keeps clutching to that straw to keep from drowning.
So, it's probably important for these folks who may be new to the faith or new to this thread to know that the illustrious leader of the Christian faith (Jesus) said nothing about the topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Intended design...
Matthew 19:4-6 - And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, ‘FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. (CAPS are NASB)
That IS a nice story but, unfortunately, it has nothing to do with the thread topic. Jesus responded to a question asked of Him about divorce. NOTHING to do with homosexuality. It IS interesting, however, that that story is often used by the anti-gay crowd to somehow imply that Jesus DID somehow 'covertly' allude to homosexuality. But, of course, they have to clutch at straws since they have nothing else. What they, um, conveniently, ignore is that in the story Jesus is condemning the thousands and thousands of divorcees and remarried couples who occupy places in just as many church pews throughout Christendom! You see, 'no fault-divorce' and remarriage to anyone whose spouse is still living is tantamount to (gulp)...adultery!
So, what do you have to say about what Jesus DID address, DRob?? After all, it was you who gave us that story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Affirming what's real kinda nukes all of the counterfeits.
Whatever that's supposed to mean, okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
And nobody worships the Bible instead of Christ. That has always been a nonsense argument.
One overarching reality gets overlooked in the give-and-take of these discussions. It’s why I will remain unalterably opposed to LGBTQ inroads into Christianity even if I’m the last man standing.
It would’ve been understandable if Jesus and the NT authors had predicted a steady flowering of Christianity until the kingdom of God was fully realized on earth. But they didn’t. Quite the opposite.
Jesus said his message would be divisive and his followers would be hated and persecuted. Both Jesus and the NT authors said that during the end times there would be an explosion of demonic activity, false teachers, false doctrines, ridicule of sound doctrine and persecution of those who hold to it, and unprecedented depravity (specifically including sexual immorality) and celebration of it. Jesus said that as the end drew near the signs would increase in frequency and intensity like birth pangs.
Just during my lifetime, precisely what the NT describes has unfolded in uncanny, unprecedented and almost jaw-dropping ways. I can only attribute much of what I’ve observed to supernatural evil. I can’t otherwise account for the stunning way in which blatantly false teachers, blatantly false doctrines and utter depravity have been so readily accepted by seemingly sane and thoughtful people.
The rise of the LGBTQ movement and the acceptance and even celebration of practices that were almost universally condemned throughout human history is but one manifestation of this. The acceptance and promotion of these practices within segments of Christianity is another. And there are many, many more.
So this to me is the overarching reality: Regardless of how you whitewash it or sugarcoat it, the acceptance of LGBTQ practices by society at large and segments of ostensible Christianity is but one aspect of a much larger picture of a descent into depravity that Jesus and the NT authors uncannily described almost 2,000 years ago.
I have no doubt that this – all of it – will continue. It’s exactly what we should expect. Society as a whole will celebrate it. Christianity will continue to be perverted and diluted until it resembles the lunacy we see on these forums, where “Christian” means whatever you want it to mean and thus has no real meaning at all. This isn’t liberation or enlightenment; it is, quite literally, the road to Hell.
But some will remain faithful to the end, and I hope to be one of them.
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) are actually committing “bibliolatry” – worshipping the Bible rather than worshipping Jesus? For those who may know know this ...Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.
