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[quote=kmom2;55829881]Exactly! The way I see it, it is all about the fruit. A good tree produces good fruit. I'm glad Jesus gave us this test because it's never failed me yet. So much suffering has come from actions motivated by the damaged psyche produced by the doctrine of eternal torment. I'm sure Middle Ages Christians probably figured that God is going to burn people in hell, so what's so bad about burning someone at the stake.[/QUOTE]
At least burning someone at the stake comes to an end.
Burning in Hell never ends, as the body is apparently cannot be consumed, and then you have little added extras like worms that never die eating your flesh etc- just to add to the torment.
The reason hell is such a dangerous doctrine is because we become exactly like the God we worship (this is another thread on the Religion discussion as well). If we worship a God who tortures people endlessly for finite transgressions, that has a way of changing who we are in a very ugly way. If we worship a God who is love, who forgives seventy times seven and then some, who doesn't leave us or abandon us no matter where we go, who loves enemies, who tells us not to judge, who is the perfect love that casts out fear...then that weaves its way into who we are and how we act.
And you cannot just "read his word and understand his decrees." First of all, his "word" is the living Christ, not a book, and reading and understanding requires interpretation, which is always through a veil of psychological projection, cultural influences, personal biases, IQ, and God knows what else, so it's never that easy. Thousands of biblical experts and theologians throughout the centuries have been wrong too many times to list.
A bogus argument .......satan is released short term only....he goes back into hell for ETERNITY a short while later......
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:10).
Eternal torment is settled theology.....only the untrained with their heads in the sand believe otherwise.......
How can a spirit, which is not flesh and blood, suffer eternal torment? I don't see how a lake of fire and brimstone could possibly hurt someone once they are dead. I don't know of anyone who would wish someone be tortured for eternity. Why would anyone worship a so-called god who would do something like that?
Gehenna might have a metaphysical meaning, but there is no historical or biblical evidence that the term meant hell in the year 0. The term is not found in any contemporary or prior apocryphal writings e.g. the books of Maccabees or any relevant contempory other writings like those of Flavius Josephus - at least none I am aware of, but I'm sure infernalists would have provided evidence if it existed - the term is not in Enoch, not in Judith and the Talmudic sources date decades if not centuries too late to proof anything.
Concerning your quote of Enoch, I once examined the existing Greek text of it and the cited passage literally reads:
This, he said, is the prison of the angels; and here they are kept here until the eon of the eon.
http://www.textexcavation.com/enoch.html
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Book of Enoch itself has universalist leanings, however if it were an inspired writing, it would not contradict universalism since the obscurity of the terms translated "eternal", "forever", but we had this discussion over and over again, most here either already know or do not want to know.
You use the English word 'hell.' The New Testament uses the terms, hades, Tartarus (once), the lake of fire, and Gehenna. With regard to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) both Peter and Jude state that the angels (the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4) are being held in pits of darkness (Peter), under darkness (Jude 6) for judgment. Tartarus is a temporary place of confinement where the angels who took part in the Genesis 6:4 affair are being held for final judgment at which time they will be sent to the lake of fire.
There was no year zero. The calendar goes from 1 BC to AD 1 . The New Testament which was written in the first century speaks of a place of punishment in terms of fire as does 1 Enoch which was written between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC.
I agree, and have stated a number of times that the lake of fire in the New Testament may not mean literal fire, since it is also called the outer darkness.
As Daniel 12:2 says,
Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The same word - olam, is used for those who are resurrected to eternal life and for those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The same duration has to apply to both as it does in Matthew 25:46. If eternal life is of unending duration then so is the duration of those who are resurrected to disgrace and contempt.
As for annihilationism, as I have shown, the beast and the false prophet even after being in the lake of fire for one thousand years are still in existence. They have not ceased to exist.
But those who believe in Universal salvation or in Annihilationism won't listen to reason, don't care what the Bible actually says, and can't seem to think straight, which makes it a waste of time getting into a discussion on the matter.
The same word - olam, is used for those who are resurrected to eternal life and for those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The same duration has to apply to both as it does in Matthew 25:46. If eternal life is of unending duration then so is the duration of those who are resurrected to disgrace and contempt.
This will be simple for you Mikey.
Please list the qualifying factors (according to the context of St. Matt 25) of>>>
"If we worship a God who tortures people endlessly for finite transgressions, that has a way of changing who we are in a very ugly way. If we worship a God who is love, who forgives seventy times seven and then some, who doesn't leave us or abandon us no matter where we go, who loves enemies, who tells us not to judge, who is the perfect love that casts out fear...then that weaves its way into who we are and how we act." -Kmom2-
You use the English word 'hell.' The New Testament uses the terms, hades, Tartarus (once), the lake of fire, and Gehenna. With regard to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) both Peter and Jude state that the angels (the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4) are being held in pits of darkness (Peter), under darkness (Jude 6) for judgment. Tartarus is a temporary place of confinement where the angels who took part in the Genesis 6:4 affair are being held for final judgment at which time they will be sent to the lake of fire.
There was no year zero. The calendar goes from 1 BC to AD 1 . The New Testament which was written in the first century speaks of a place of punishment in terms of fire as does 1 Enoch which was written between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC.
I agree, and have stated a number of times that the lake of fire in the New Testament may not mean literal fire, since it is also called the outer darkness.
As Daniel 12:2 says,
Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The same word - olam, is used for those who are resurrected to eternal life and for those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The same duration has to apply to both as it does in Matthew 25:46. If eternal life is of unending duration then so is the duration of those who are resurrected to disgrace and contempt.
As for annihilationism, as I have shown, the beast and the false prophet even after being in the lake of fire for one thousand years are still in existence. They have not ceased to exist.
But those who believe in Universal salvation or in Annihilationism won't listen to reason, don't care what the Bible actually says, and can't seem to think straight, which makes it a waste of time getting into a discussion on the matter.
Plus it isn't hell as hell gives up the dead in it and those who are adversely judged are then tossed into the lake of fire. Sooo ... Hell is not eternal. The Lake of fire is, but the body is not in it as most were worm food long ago. It is an indication of .. destruction. They are gone forever never to live again.
You don't understand the meaning of the Greek word which is translated into English as 'perish.'
The Greek word is ἀπόλλυμι - apollumi
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His unique Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, (μὴ ἀπόληται - mē apolētai ;aorist subjunctive middle of apollumi ) but have eternal life.
In Luke 15:8 the word apollumi is used for a lost coin. The coin is lost, but it is not destroyed. It has not ceased to exist.
Luke 15:8 "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (ἀπολέσῃ; aorist subjunctive active of apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?
In Mattthew 15:24 the lost sheep of the house of Israel are apollumi. They are lost, but they are very much physically alive.
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost (ἀπολωλότα - apolōlota; perfect active particle of apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel."
In Mark 2:22 the old wineskin (and the wine) are destroyed, both are ruined, they are apollumi, but they still exist.
Mark 2:22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins—and the wine is destroyed (ἀπόλλυται - apollytai; present passive indicative of apollumi), and so are the skins. But new wine is for fresh wineskins.â€
John 3:16 then can be, and is in some translations, translated as follows;
John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life. [International Standard Version]
John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life. [Aramaic Bible in Plain English]
Lost like the lost coin, or like the lost sheep of Israel. Both are lost, both are apollumi, but both still exist. And the old wineskin still exists in a ruined condition. The Bible does not teach annihilation.
A simple reading of Revelation 19:20 through 20:10 shows that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire BEFORE the thousand years, and are then joined by Satan AFTER the thousand years, and it is then said of them all that they will be tormented forever. So the beast and the false prophet will have already been in torment in the lake of fire for a thousand years before Satan himself is thrown in. They have not ceased to exist.
Now, you may choose not to believe the Bible, but there it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
You use the English word 'hell.' The New Testament uses the terms, hades, Tartarus (once), the lake of fire, and Gehenna. With regard to Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4) both Peter and Jude state that the angels (the sons of God in Genesis 6:2-4) are being held in pits of darkness (Peter), under darkness (Jude 6) for judgment. Tartarus is a temporary place of confinement where the angels who took part in the Genesis 6:4 affair are being held for final judgment at which time they will be sent to the lake of fire.
There was no year zero. The calendar goes from 1 BC to AD 1 . The New Testament which was written in the first century speaks of a place of punishment in terms of fire as does 1 Enoch which was written between the 3rd and 1st centuries BC.
I agree, and have stated a number of times that the lake of fire in the New Testament may not mean literal fire, since it is also called the outer darkness.
As Daniel 12:2 says,
Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
The same word - olam, is used for those who are resurrected to eternal life and for those who are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt. The same duration has to apply to both as it does in Matthew 25:46. If eternal life is of unending duration then so is the duration of those who are resurrected to disgrace and contempt.
As for annihilationism, as I have shown, the beast and the false prophet even after being in the lake of fire for one thousand years are still in existence. They have not ceased to exist.
But those who believe in Universal salvation or in Annihilationism won't listen to reason, don't care what the Bible actually says, and can't seem to think straight, which makes it a waste of time getting into a discussion on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Plus it isn't hell as hell gives up the dead in it and those who are adversely judged are then tossed into the lake of fire. Sooo ... Hell is not eternal. The Lake of fire is, but the body is not in it as most were worm food long ago. It is an indication of .. destruction. They are gone forever never to live again.
The Jehovah's Witnesses teach annihilationism, not the Bible. As shown in post #28, the Greek word apolummi need not be taken as 'ceasing to exist.' Those who go into the lake of fire or Gehenna go in both body and soul as the final judgment of the great white throne takes place after everyone, including unbelievers have been resurrected. As Daniel 12:2 shows, some are resurrected to eternal life and some are resurrected to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
So you believe that those people that have suffered tragedies in their lives or struggle with chronic medical afflictions are cursed by G-d? Are they all such "sinners" that they deserve to be punished now as well as in the afterlife?
You start your question with false assumptions. You need to learn how to ask a question correctly. One helpful hint is to stop reading and watching modern media. They are replete with these type of errors
Our God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has not cursed His creation, and is in fact the Saviour of all that has been broken and bent by one man's sin. The day of hurts will be adequately met by the One who declares>>>
The WHOLE of created life shall be delivered/set free/ emancipated from the tyranny of change and decay
Yes KJoe, the whole radical all will be delivered!
Not a few choice few, not some, the whole radical ALL, shall be delivered!
Sorry I don't follow your religion. I believe in Truth and Jesus promised to save me and other like minded from everlasting torment. Unfortunately, He made no promises to you and your followers. He has made some warnings against you though. I would take it with extreme caution and seriousness
Sorry I don't follow your religion. I believe in Truth and Jesus promised to save me and other like minded from everlasting torment. Unfortunately, He made no promises to you and your follows. He has made some serious threats against you though. I would take it with extreme caution and seriousness
Now hold on. I don't agree with Universalism, but holding that belief doesn't automatically mean that one isn't saved. If a person believes that Jesus died for their sins, and that he rose again, that person has been saved regardless of any errant views he may hold regarding other matters. Believing that all men will be saved is not Biblical, but believing it doesn't mean that you are going to hell.
And with that, I take my leave of this thread. Besides, there is too much talk of Universalsim on this thread. There is a thread that has been reserved for that subject and the subject is not supposed to be discussed outside of that thread.
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This is a great post!
