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Have you heard the expression you know he is lying, when his lips are moving.
It seems to me that the falling away began the moment man began to speak.
Have you heard the expression you know he is lying, when his lips are moving.
It seems to me that the falling away began the moment man began to speak.
There sure are a lot of liars around here according to Jerwade and Mystic!
That word is common in both their posts! It looks as though they have mastered the use of that word.
There sure are a lot of liars around here according to Jerwade and Mystic!
That word is common in both their posts! It looks as though they have mastered the use of that word.
Then you and JBF should stop lying so we won't have to keep pointing it out!
Christ was supposed to be the cornerstone and the standard of truth upon which the ecclesia was built, NOT a bunch of men using their own primitive understanding based on their traditions and beliefs about their War God.
I believe Jesus' Apostles probably had a better understanding of who God was than perhaps anyone who has ever lived since. I don't believe for a minute that they saw their Father in Heaven in the way you suggest. They had, after all, been taught by the Son of God himself, and I suspect they were very, very open to any truths He taught them. I believe, based on what I have read, that the very earliest Christians, who were taught by the Apostles themselves, understood love. That love transcended anything the ancient world had ever seen before. I don't believe that would have been the case had the Apostles seen God as you have described Him. I see the influx of Greek philosophical thought (in the second through the fifth centuries) as being the driving force that destroyed the original understanding that Christ's earlier followers had of both the nature of God, the relationship between the Father and the Son, and mankind's relationship to a loving Father and not, as you say, a "War God." It was without the Apostles' leadership that things began to fall apart. You know what happens to a house when the foundation starts to crumble.
I have always understood that 'not sparing the flock' was echoing Jesus warning that 'as they hated me they will hate you also' ; including martyrdom, which happened then, and continues even now today (slaughter of Christians in Africa, Mid-east, etc) - and will continue to until 'their full number' is accounted (Rev 6:9-11)
I also feel that while there is not perfect unity among all Christians, I don't see them openly supporting slaughtering one another (except those who cannot speak/defend themselves, but that topic is forbidden here).
I would have to argue that Paul uses explicit terms that eliminate the possibility of a total apostasy in his letter to the Ephesians:
In Ephesians 1:23, he describes the Church as “[Christ’s] body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”
This Church, he goes on, is “built upon the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20).
Indeed, Paul describes the Church as being the instrument God has chosen so that “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places” (Eph. 3:10).
Paul then reminds us, as we have already seen, this Church must have apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers (cf. Eph. 4:11).
And why? “For the equipment of the saints . . . for building up the body of Christ . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine . . .” (Eph. 4:12-14).
According to St. Paul, God gave us the Church so that we may know with certainty the truths of the faith.
This is by no means the only reason for the existence of the Church, but it is a central reason.
But most importantly, consider Ephesians 3:20-21: “Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, to him be glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.”
This Church that Paul is describing in Ephesians will be here to all generations (pasas tas geneas, “all the generations”) forever and ever.
This biblical text seems to eliminate the possibility of a total apostasy for even one generation, much less 300, 1500, 1800, or even 1900 years.
Again, Jesus's word - '...my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it' (Matt. 16:18).
Yes, and I think it has to do with the Breaking down of unrighteousness, wickedness and the building up through the Spirit which is about quality
The first/last is not just about time it is also importance and quality, and there is a reordering of those things, a flipping as it were
The same as there was a change of administration in the 1st century, there was another in the 1500’s
Yes, and I think it has to do with the Breaking down of unrighteousness, wickedness and the building up through the Spirit which is about quality
The first/last is not just about time it is also importance and quality, and there is a reordering of those things, a flipping as it were
The same as there was a change of administration in the 1st century, there was another in the 1500’s
But how did the Protestant Reformers really bring back the Church as it was in Christ's day? Though he lived in the 17th century and not in the 14th, and was credited with founding the First Baptist Church in America, he soon left that church as he came to accept the fact that the apostasy prophesied by Paul was complete. He said, “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.... The Apostasy… hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."
I believe Jesus' Apostles probably had a better understanding of who God was than perhaps anyone who has ever lived since. I don't believe for a minute that they saw their Father in Heaven in the way you suggest. They had, after all, been taught by the Son of God himself, and I suspect they were very, very open to any truths He taught them. I believe, based on what I have read, that the very earliest Christians, who were taught by the Apostles themselves, understood love. That love transcended anything the ancient world had ever seen before. I don't believe that would have been the case had the Apostles seen God as you have described Him. I see the influx of Greek philosophical thought (in the second through the fifth centuries) as being the driving force that destroyed the original understanding that Christ's earlier followers had of both the nature of God, the relationship between the Father and the Son, and mankind's relationship to a loving Father and not, as you say, a "War God." It was without the Apostles' leadership that things began to fall apart. You know what happens to a house when the foundation starts to crumble.
You could be right because we do not know what caused the NT writings to be interpreted as they are. It is quite believable, as you say, that those who actually met and followed Jesus knew God was no War God. Unfortunately, virtually everything eventually written down has been interpreted from the context of a wrathful War God for whatever reason and by whoever was ultimately responsible for it.
That makes the source irrelevant to the fact that it occurred because the ones involved could not even envision another God other than the one they have always been exposed to and their equivalents in the other religions at the time.
But how did the Protestant Reformers really bring back the Church as it was in Christ's day? Though he lived in the 17th century and not in the 14th, and was credited with founding the First Baptist Church in America, he soon left that church as he came to accept the fact that the apostasy prophesied by Paul was complete. He said, “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.... The Apostasy… hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."
Personally, I think he was onto something.
The point is not about going back to the 1st century system, development is ongoing - but there might be something about those new Apostles/messengers
G652***(Strong)
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.
The sequence was this
1Co 12:27**Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28**And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29**Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30**Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31**But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Co 13:4**Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5**Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6**Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7**Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8**Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9**For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10**But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I look at that those things that fail the apostles 1st mentioned along with the love do not pass away/fail/cease, as do the tongues and knowing and prophecy which are all “in part”
Isa 52:6**Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
Isa 52:7**How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
But how did the Protestant Reformers really bring back the Church as it was in Christ's day? Though he lived in the 17th century and not in the 14th, and was credited with founding the First Baptist Church in America, he soon left that church as he came to accept the fact that the apostasy prophesied by Paul was complete. He said, “There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.... The Apostasy… hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew."
Personally, I think he was onto something.
Who was that Katzpur? Do you have a link I can read about him?
Who was that Katzpur? Do you have a link I can read about him?
Holy cow! How could I have posted that and not even mentioned the man's name? It was Roger Williams. You can read what Wiki has to say about him and then look for more in-depth information if you'd like. Again, I apologize for quoting him without even stating his name. Jeesh, I'm getting old.
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