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In a way yes, God was not conforming to us, as such.... but He was lowering himself to allow His people to conform to Him, but first they need to be brought to an awareness of who He is.
I agree with what you're saying, but that's not what I meant when I said that God had to conform to what Greek philosophy said He must be. What I was trying to get across was the the Hebrews had their way of seeing and understanding God. But by the fourth century, most of the educated Christians were educated in Greek philosophical thought. And according to that way of thinking, God could not be what the Hebrews thought He was -- especially if there were three (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) who were all thought of as God. Somehow God had to reconstructed in such a way that the Hebrews belief in one God and the Christian recognition of Christ as God could be reconciled and then the whole thing had to be put into words that made sure He fit into the Greek notion of what a deity would have to be. God had to have certain qualities and characteristics that the Jewish converts to Christianity would have known nothing about. Concepts like homoousios and homoiousios would have been completely foreign to the Hebrew way of thinking. God could no longer be what He was. He had to be what Greek philosophy said He was.
I have been weeping over the false doctrines that I see being purported on these boards.
This saddens my heart so much, brother. We serve the same Lord and God and the same love and righteousness in all things. We just differ in why we believe in Jesus and what the consequences are for our failures. You need to believe in a wrathful God so you think it is essential to believe He appeased God's wrath on our behalf. I see no wrath or vengeance in Jesus Christ on the Cross so I don't.
I know He brought God's Holy Spirit to His human consciousness and achieved for us as a human what none of us could - perfect agape love in His human consciousness. The result is the same. God is not counting our sins against us because we have the cover of Jesus's perfection (Grace).
You think we need to earn His Grace by believing a bunch of "precepts and doctrines of men" involving the wrath of God. I know we do not need to earn His love or Grace and certainly not by believing in God's wrath. We just need to love God and each other and repent when we fail.
This saddens my heart so much, brother. We serve the same Lord and God and the same love and righteousness in all things. We just differ in why we believe in Jesus and what the consequences are for our failures. You need to believe in a wrathful God so you think it is essential to believe He appeased God's wrath on our behalf. I see no wrath or vengeance in Jesus Christ on the Cross so I don't.
I know He brought God's Holy Spirit to His human consciousness and achieved for us as a human what none of us could - perfect agape love in His human consciousness. The result is the same. God is not counting our sins against us because we have the cover of Jesus's perfection (Grace).
You think we need to earn His Grace by believing a bunch of "precepts and doctrines of men" involving the wrath of God. I know we do not need to earn His love or Grace and certainly not by believing in God's wrath. We just need to love God and each other and repent when we fail.
Nice post, Mystic. Could it be that you're mellowing?
I agree with what you're saying, but that's not what I meant when I said that God had to conform to what Greek philosophy said He must be. What I was trying to get across was the the Hebrews had their way of seeing and understanding God. But by the fourth century, most of the educated Christians were educated in Greek philosophical thought. And according to that way of thinking, God could not be what the Hebrews thought He was -- especially if there were three (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) who were all thought of as God. Somehow God had to reconstructed in such a way that the Hebrews belief in one God and the Christian recognition of Christ as God could be reconciled and then the whole thing had to be put into words that made sure He fit into the Greek notion of what a deity would have to be. God had to have certain qualities and characteristics that the Jewish converts to Christianity would have known nothing about. Concepts like homoousios and homoiousios would have been completely foreign to the Hebrew way of thinking. God could no longer be what He was. He had to be what Greek philosophy said He was.
Getting along with the Hellenistic Christians was a sore point for the early Church.
Remember how Stephen was appointed as one of seven to look after the distribution? The Hellenistic Christians (not actually called Christians, but members of the Way at this time.) had come to someone high up and complained that their people were getting shorted in the distribution. The Apostles made a great declaration of saying that it was beneath them to do that work. They needed their time. It was decided that seven would be appointed to do that.
This very subject is a much bigger deal than anybody thinks. Not only does it speak to the principle that God has been communicating, that we treat each other equally. But the intersection of Stephen specifically, as the seventh of the seven, so to speak, with this subject, and how it fits in with other narratives, such as the Elijah story tell how that story prophesies the story of the Holy Spirit in all this.
If there is any falling away, it took place over this. Because after the death of Stephen came the persecution.
A much younger version of the man who would become Paul was there, when Stephen was stoned to death. He was a part of those doing it. It took him a while to get the dander up to go to Damascus. First, he had to ruin the lives of most of the early members of the Way who lived in and around Jerusalem.
This is all foretold in the story of Elijah. After he had called fire down from heaven, he sat on top of the mountain with his head between his knees. He said to his servant, "Go and look at the sea." The servant, eventually went seven times. The first six times he saw nothing. The seventh time he saw a cloud about the size of a man's hand.
Elijah said, "It's going to rain." Prophetically, the rain symbolizes persecution. Remember it hadn't rained for at least three years. It wasn't going to rain, except at Elijah's word. In this narrative comparison, Elijah is the Holy Spirit. You can see that Stephen is the seventh, that is the size of a man's hand.
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 09-07-2021 at 11:47 AM..
Reason: the writing process
I agree with what you're saying, but that's not what I meant when I said that God had to conform to what Greek philosophy said He must be. What I was trying to get across was the the Hebrews had their way of seeing and understanding God. But by the fourth century, most of the educated Christians were educated in Greek philosophical thought. And according to that way of thinking, God could not be what the Hebrews thought He was -- especially if there were three (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) who were all thought of as God. Somehow God had to reconstructed in such a way that the Hebrews belief in one God and the Christian recognition of Christ as God could be reconciled and then the whole thing had to be put into words that made sure He fit into the Greek notion of what a deity would have to be. God had to have certain qualities and characteristics that the Jewish converts to Christianity would have known nothing about. Concepts like homoousios and homoiousios would have been completely foreign to the Hebrew way of thinking. God could no longer be what He was. He had to be what Greek philosophy said He was.
Just thinking out loud here
I’m not sure that you can put the hellenisation at that point of time, I think it goes much earlier than that
What I think was happening in those centuries (100 - 500ad) is the balancing between the Roman and the Greek/Judaic mindsets and that there was an over emphasis on the Greek “heretic” and the Roman wanted orthodoxy which is how the canon came to be out of all the writings that proliferated
The “book” “canon” was the work of the Roman Church that they knew was their religious duty to compose and keep - Just like the Jews did with their own “oracles” of God
What I think was happening in those centuries (100 - 500ad) is the balancing between the Roman and the Greek/Judaic mindsets and that there was an over emphasis on the Greek “heretic” and the Roman wanted orthodoxy which is how the canon came to be out of all the writings that proliferated
The “book” “canon” was the work of the Roman Church that they knew was their religious duty to compose and keep - Just like the Jews did with their own “oracles” of God
I'm sure you're right. I just think it was in full swing by about the 4th century. But of course, major changes in anything don't take place overnight. Thanks for the recommendation on Philo. I'll check it out.
And one other thing no one has mentioned so far is that there were clearly also pagan influences which influenced early Christian doctrine.
I'm sure you're right. I just think it was in full swing by about the 4th century. But of course, major changes in anything don't take place overnight. Thanks for the recommendation on Philo. I'll check it out.
Also Josephus is good read to get context/perspective
Influence
The major literary product of the contact of Judaism and Hellenistic culture is the Septuagint, as well as the Book of Wisdom, Sirach, apocrypha and pseudepigraphic apocalyptic literature (such as the Assumption of Moses, the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, the Book of Baruch, the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch, etc.) dating to the period. Important sources are Philo of Alexandria and Flavius Josephus. Some scholars[10] consider Paul the Apostle to be a Hellenist as well, even though he himself claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6).
Philo of Alexandria was an important apologist of Judaism, presenting it as a tradition of venerable antiquity that, far from being a barbarian cult of an oriental nomadic tribe, with its doctrine of monotheism had anticipated tenets of Hellenistic philosophy. Philo could draw on Jewish tradition to use customs which Greeks thought as primitive or exotic as the basis for metaphors: such as "circumcision of the heart" in the pursuit of virtue.[11] Consequently, Hellenistic Judaism emphasized monotheistic doctrine (heis theos), and represented reason (logos) and wisdom (sophia) as emanations from God.
Beyond Tarsus, Alexandretta, Antioch and Northwestern Syria (the main "Cilician and Asiatic" centers of Hellenistic Judaism in the Levant), the second half of the Second Temple period witnessed an acceleration of Hellenization in Israel itself, with Jewish high priests and aristocrats alike adopting Greek names:
'Ḥoni' became 'Menelaus'; 'Joshua' became 'Jason' or 'Jesus' [Ἰησοῦς]. The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people […] The inscription forbidding strangers to advance beyond a certain point in the Temple was in Greek; and was probably made necessary by the presence of numerous Jews from Greek-speaking countries at the time of the festivals (comp. the "murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews," Acts vi. 1). The coffers in the Temple which contained the shekel contributions were marked with Greek letters (Sheḳ. iii. 2). It is therefore no wonder that there were synagogues of the Libertines, Cyrenians, Alexandrians, Cilicians, and Asiatics in the Holy City itself (Acts vi. 9).[12]
And also another I got a lot from was Strabo (for the same reason - context)
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