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Katzpur, I am interested in the early Church formation as well and also the reformation of the 1500’s
I tend to think in the Scriptures there is an overlaying that happens and that what is spoken in the New Testament is building upon the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and looks forward to the fulfillment over the then future 2000 years
The early Church Fathers/Doctors/saints “works” are about a looking back at the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, as well as looking at the gospels, epistles, and Revelation and also the Greek and Roman writings (harvesting) and also planting the seeds (works) for the future generations to harvest and sow in their own turns/generations
I believe there is a lot of metaphors, figures of speech in those writings and we need to separate, divide, interpret, translate as that is what they were doing when they were creating those works
Im not sure the apostasy happened in the 1st centuries, What I suspect it was the Protestant Revolution/reformation - That was the falling away
That is what was happening then, the belief that the system of Popery was the anti-Christ and since then there has been great diversity created
2Th 2:3**Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4**Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5**Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6**And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7**For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8**And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9**Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10**And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11**And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12**That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Few decades after Christ, should have made a poll.
Few decades after Christ, should have made a poll.
It was definitely fairly early on after His and Paul's death, IMO. Changing His unambiguous example of God's True Nature into a blood sacrifice to a wrathful God had to happen fairly early. It is clear that the dominant view of God at that time was a controlling factor for those who did not know Christ (if not more nefarious motivations). As Katz said it is unlikely that anyone who actually knew and lived with Jesus would characterize God that way.
Few decades after Christ, should have made a poll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2
I didn’t want a poll
A poll wouldn't have been particularly useful as the apostasy took place over many centuries.
What I personally find interesting is reading about the beliefs of 1st century Jewish converts to Christianity and what they believed. Yes, it involves looking at extra-biblical sources, but these can be very useful when trying to compare the ancient Church to the Christianity of today. I'll find a doctrine I'm particularly interested in and do some research on it, only to discover that it was deemed to be "heresy" 5 or 6 centuries after Christ's death. When people today think of a 3-digit year (e.g., 250 AD, 325 AD, 580 AD) they think, "Wow. That was a long time ago. That wasn't all that far removed from Jesus' day. But it really was! People held to doctrines for centuries before they were ever said to be false, just because somebody in power decided they were false. If people were practicing or believing certain things for several hundred years, those things were part of orthodoxy. And then suddenly, overnight, the Church says, "No more. That's heresy." And today, a millennia and a half later, nobody questions how or why the change came about. They just assume it was always that way when it really wasn't.
A poll wouldn't have been particularly useful as the apostasy took place over many centuries.
What I personally find interesting is reading about the beliefs of 1st century Jewish converts to Christianity and what they believed. Yes, it involves looking at extra-biblical sources, but these can be very useful when trying to compare the ancient Church to the Christianity of today. I'll find a doctrine I'm particularly interested in and do some research on it, only to discover that it was deemed to be "heresy" 5 or 6 centuries after Christ's death. When people today think of a 3-digit year (e.g., 250 AD, 325 AD, 580 AD) they think, "Wow. That was a long time ago. That wasn't all that far removed from Jesus' day. But it really was! People held to doctrines for centuries before they were ever said to be false, just because somebody in power decided they were false. If people were practicing or believing certain things for several hundred years, those things were part of orthodoxy. And then suddenly, overnight, the Church says, "No more. That's heresy." And today, a millennia and a half later, nobody questions how or why the change came about. They just assume it was always that way when it really wasn't.
And you have to realise that not everyone could read and write like today, it was only the scribes, the learned.... much of what they were recording was not for the multitudes or general circulation
And you have to realise that not everyone could read and write like today, it was only the scribes, the learned.... much of what they were recording was not for the multitudes or general circulation
Yes, and fairly early on, the learned were educated in Greek philosophy -- hence, the "Hellenization" of Christianity. God had to conform to what Greek philosophy said He must be.
Yes, and the learned were educated in Greek philosophy -- hence, the "Hellenization" of Christianity.
Not just Greek though, that is just one of the influences/schools of thought
In acts of the Apostles you have the broad range mentioned
Act 2:5**And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6**Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7**And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8**And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9**Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10**Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11**Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Act 2:12**And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13**Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Yes, and fairly early on, the learned were educated in Greek philosophy -- hence, the "Hellenization" of Christianity. God had to conform to what Greek philosophy said He must be.
In a way yes, God was not conforming to us, as such.... but He was lowering himself to allow His people to conform to Him, but first they need to be brought to an awareness of who He is
1Co 9:19**For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20**And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21**To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22**To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23**And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
There is a reason for the different books of the bible - Corinthians (Greek) Romans are not Greek!
I have been weeping over the false doctrines that I see being purported on these boards.
My advice to anyone who desires to know the truth of holy scripture, is that they would cease from looking to message boards like these for the truth and simply look to holy scripture.
Eze 13:21, Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 13:22, Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
Eze 13:23, Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
For I find myself to be incapable of dealing with everything that I see, in order to protect the flock from certain false doctrines that seem to be prevailing here.
I believe Jesus' Apostles probably had a better understanding of who God was than perhaps anyone who has ever lived since. I don't believe for a minute that they saw their Father in Heaven in the way you suggest. They had, after all, been taught by the Son of God himself, and I suspect they were very, very open to any truths He taught them. I believe, based on what I have read, that the very earliest Christians, who were taught by the Apostles themselves, understood love. That love transcended anything the ancient world had ever seen before. I don't believe that would have been the case had the Apostles seen God as you have described Him. I see the influx of Greek philosophical thought (in the second through the fifth centuries) as being the driving force that destroyed the original understanding that Christ's earlier followers had of both the nature of God, the relationship between the Father and the Son, and mankind's relationship to a loving Father and not, as you say, a "War God." It was without the Apostles' leadership that things began to fall apart. You know what happens to a house when the foundation starts to crumble.
Don't forget the argument between those early Church fathers and the Holy Spirit over circumcision. Yes, it was between those fathers and the Holy Spirit. Continually, the Spirit told them about the importance of concepts like equality. He would not allow Ananias and Sapphira to dominate the Church order through money. Neither did He slay Simon, the magician, who wanted to be able to lay hands on people.
He rebuked him for the opposite, really. He would not allow him to enter into that with such a sense of self-denial. Simon was, essentially, the third captain of fifty who came before Elijah and asked for the life of him and his fifty men instead of demanding what the king wanted before all else. Ananias and Sapphira were the first two. They came with the old order, ready to cram it in sideways.
I maintain that God has been at work in mankind intimately these last two thousand years. He has been able to affect men in ways that He couldn't before. These are real changes that have introduced concepts which have changed the mind of man on the planet. While we have been preoccupied looking toward the Church for these ideas, God has instead given them directly to individual men and women. Sometimes these ideas have been associated with the Church.
The scriptural understanding for this is the baptism of the household of Cornelius by the Holy Spirit. He came upon them in the same manner that He had come upon the original 120. But we don't hear about the Church that was founded by that event!
Cornelius is Yehu, son of Nimshi. Paul is the Syrian whom Elijah was told to anoint as king of Syria. Elisha, who fulfilled that, was saddened over that because of the number of deaths it would bring to the Jews. Likewise, God was saddened by Paul's message, even though He anointed and set him forth in it. Paul's message would be responsible for the deaths of many Jews. It is a historical fact. There is terrible animosity that proceeds forth from the whole "Christ killer" accusation against the Jews that has been addressed toward them because of Paul's message. It is an association that has been insisted upon by those who can't reconcile everything they need to at the cross, when they meet God. They seem to need the Jewish "enemy." They need to belong to the winning group, and they need to denounce any other groups, even to kill them.
Last edited by Am I a Prophet; 09-07-2021 at 03:27 AM..
Reason: the writing process
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