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What specifically, Meerkat? The "falling away" aka "apostasy"? I have a lot of material on the subject, but most of it is in book form. It's likely on the internet, too, but I don't have any specific websites to direct you to. That subject, though, has always held a great deal of fascination for me. I am intrigued to see when, how, and why one original Christian doctrine after another was suddenly deemed "heresy." Most of the time, this took place several hundred years after Christ's death.
Katzpur, I am interested in the early Church formation as well and also the reformation of the 1500’s
I tend to think in the Scriptures there is an overlaying that happens and that what is spoken in the New Testament is building upon the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and looks forward to the fulfillment over the then future 2000 years
The early Church Fathers/Doctors/saints “works” are about a looking back at the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, as well as looking at the gospels, epistles, and Revelation and also the Greek and Roman writings (harvesting) and also planting the seeds (works) for the future generations to harvest and sow in their own turns/generations
I believe there is a lot of metaphors, figures of speech in those writings and we need to separate, divide, interpret, translate as that is what they were doing when they were creating those works
Im not sure the apostasy happened in the 1st centuries, What I suspect it was the Protestant Revolution/reformation - That was the falling away
That is what was happening then, the belief that the system of Popery was the anti-Christ and since then there has been great diversity created
2Th 2:3**Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4**Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5**Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6**And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7**For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8**And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9**Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10**And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11**And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12**That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Katzpur, I am interested in the early Church formation as well and also the reformation of the 1500’s
I tend to think in the Scriptures there is an overlaying that happens and that what is spoken in the New Testament is building upon the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and looks forward to the fulfillment over the then future 2000 years
The early Church Fathers/Doctors/saints “works” are about a looking back at the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, as well as looking at the gospels, epistles, and Revelation and also the Greek and Roman writings (harvesting) and also planting the seeds (works) for the future generations to harvest and sow in their own turns/generations
I believe there is a lot of metaphors, figures of speech in those writings and we need to separate, divide, interpret, translate as that is what they were doing when they were creating those works
Im not sure the apostasy happened in the 1st centuries, What I suspect it was the Protestant Revolution/reformation - That was the falling away
That is what was happening then, the belief that the system of Popery was the anti-Christ and since then there has been great diversity created
2Th 2:3**Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4**Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5**Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6**And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7**For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8**And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9**Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10**And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11**And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12**That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The apostasy was well in force by the death of the apostles Kat, and ended when Jesus was enthroned as King. After he had cleansed the heavens, then the regathering of Jehovah's people on earth began and we entered into the last days of this worldly system.
What specifically, Meerkat? The "falling away" aka "apostasy"? I have a lot of material on the subject, but most of it is in book form. It's likely on the internet, too, but I don't have any specific websites to direct you to. That subject, though, has always held a great deal of fascination for me. I am intrigued to see when, how, and why one original Christian doctrine after another was suddenly deemed "heresy." Most of the time, this took place several hundred years after Christ's death.
It is clear to me, as an outside observer free from indoctrination, that the apostasy happened very early when Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's True Nature on the Cross was misinterpreted under the context of a wrathful War God as somehow payment for our iniquities.
It was actually supposed to show who God really IS and be a demonstration of how God wants us to be. The doctrine has never recovered from that initial corruption and has been solidified by subsequent theological rationalizations and interpretations all using the wrathful God context from the OT.
It has been a travesty of primitive human ignorance, vanity, and hubris, IMO. But what do I know about doctrine? I just came to Christ because of the descriptions of what He did on the Cross exactly matching the consciousness I encountered in meditation.
It quickly became obvious to me that most of the doctrines clearly contradict the descriptions of Christ's reactions on the Cross and the attributes of the consciousness I encountered. So I reject the wrathful doctrines but completely accept Christ!
Last edited by MysticPhD; 09-06-2021 at 10:20 AM..
Meerkat, although this is one of my favorite topics, I am hesitant to say much until there have been a few more comments. I know that what I say is going to be really controversial and I'm not sure I'm in the mood for a fight right now. Of course, differences of opinion shouldn't lead to heated arguments, insults, and name-calling, but on this forum they always do.
For now, I'll just say that I believe an apostasy was clearly predicted, mostly by Paul, who was evidently quite troubled to see its beginnings in his lifetime. I believe that it did, in fact take place, and that it was well underway by the end of the 1st century. This is not to say that Christianity ever ceased to exist. As long as the sincere in heart continue to try to live by Christ's example, looking to Him for salvation, there will always be Christians on earth.
Let's see where this goes and I'm sure I'll be contributing further. I pretty much can't stop myself when it comes to this topic.
I would agree that there has always been individuals & even groups/large who have apostatized (OT & NT),
but where has there ever been a 'total apostasy';
is that what's being discussed here?
Doesn't scripture show Christ will be with His church always: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me . . . and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matt. 28:18-20).
. . . and of his kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:33).
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).
I would agree that there has always been individuals & even groups/large who have apostatized (OT & NT),
but where has there ever been a 'total apostasy';
is that what's being discussed here?
Doesn't scripture show Christ will be with His church always: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me . . . and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matt. 28:18-20).
. . . and of his kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:33).
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).
Hi, CCCyou. Yes, a "total apostasy" is what is being discussed here. As far back as in Old Testament times, this was prophesied.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Paul said that after his death, "shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." Individual members of the flock might might be spared, but I see the flock as the Church Christ established. Jesus promised that He would be "with you always, even unto the end of the world." I believe He has never left us, not as individuals. But I believe the Church He established strayed from the truth over a number of centuries.
Jesus appointed Apostles, and gave them authority to oversee His Church after His death, with Peter being at the helm. At first, as one of the twelve died, he was replaced. This continued for a time, indicating that the twelve understood that they were to be the governing body and that the Church should never be without them. Unfortunately, they traveled a great deal and in the end, those who did not die a natural death were martyred.
In Ephesians 4:13-15, Paul states that this organizational structure should remain in place "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."
There is certainly no unity between Christians today and the knowledge we have of the Son of God varies greatly.
Hi, CCCyou. Yes, a "total apostasy" is what is being discussed here. As far back as in Old Testament times, this was prophesied.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Paul said that after his death, "shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." Individual members of the flock might might be spared, but I see the flock as the Church Christ established. Jesus promised that He would be "with you always, even unto the end of the world." I believe He has never left us, not as individuals. But I believe the Church He established strayed from the truth over a number of centuries.
Jesus appointed Apostles, and gave them authority to oversee His Church after His death, with Peter being at the helm. At first, as one of the twelve died, he was replaced. This continued for a time, indicating that the twelve understood that they were to be the governing body and that the Church should never be without them. Unfortunately, they traveled a great deal and in the end, those who did not die a natural death were martyred.
In Ephesians 4:13-15, Paul states that this organizational structure should remain in place "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."
There is certainly no unity between Christians today and the knowledge we have of the Son of God varies greatly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highway54
The apostasy was well in force by the death of the apostles Kat, and ended when Jesus was enthroned as King. After he had cleansed the heavens, then the regathering of Jehovah's people on earth began and we entered into the last days of this worldly system.
I have always understood that 'not sparing the flock' was echoing Jesus warning that 'as they hated me they will hate you also' ; including martyrdom, which happened then, and continues even now today (slaughter of Christians in Africa, Mid-east, etc) - and will continue to until 'their full number' is accounted (Rev 6:9-11)
I also feel that while there is not perfect unity among all Christians, I don't see them openly supporting slaughtering one another (except those who cannot speak/defend themselves, but that topic is forbidden here).
I would have to argue that Paul uses explicit terms that eliminate the possibility of a total apostasy in his letter to the Ephesians:
In Ephesians 1:23, he describes the Church as “[Christ’s] body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.”
This Church, he goes on, is “built upon the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone” (Eph. 2:20).
Indeed, Paul describes the Church as being the instrument God has chosen so that “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places” (Eph. 3:10).
Paul then reminds us, as we have already seen, this Church must have apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists, and teachers (cf. Eph. 4:11).
And why? “For the equipment of the saints . . . for building up the body of Christ . . . so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine . . .” (Eph. 4:12-14).
According to St. Paul, God gave us the Church so that we may know with certainty the truths of the faith.
This is by no means the only reason for the existence of the Church, but it is a central reason.
But most importantly, consider Ephesians 3:20-21: “Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, to him be glory in the Church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.”
This Church that Paul is describing in Ephesians will be here to all generations (pasas tas geneas, “all the generations”) forever and ever.
This biblical text seems to eliminate the possibility of a total apostasy for even one generation, much less 300, 1500, 1800, or even 1900 years.
Again, Jesus's word - '...my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it' (Matt. 16:18).
After the Roman Empire ended, One of the apostasy against some eastern belief of idolatry ended belief and Christianity was challenged with apostasy came during the years 666 AD when humanism became popular and the Islamic belief started .........
I would agree that there has always been individuals & even groups/large who have apostatized (OT & NT),
but where has there ever been a 'total apostasy';
is that what's being discussed here?
Doesn't scripture show Christ will be with His church always: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me . . . and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age” (Matt. 28:18-20).
. . . and of his kingdom there will be no end (Luke 1:33).
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18).
I’m wanting a free flowing of thoughts
Yes, I believe the Scriptures point to a specific time when the great apostasy/falling away happens when a particular restrainer/inhibitor gets taken out of the way
What I see in the Scriptures is a flip and sequence and cycles, and the falling away is about particular systems being dissolved
The Judgment at Christ's Coming
2Th 1:5**Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6**Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7**And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8**In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9**Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10**When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11**Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
2Th 1:12**That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 3:7**But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8**But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9**The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10**But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11**Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12**Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13**Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It is clear to me, as an outside observer free from indoctrination, that the apostasy happened very early when Christ's unambiguous demonstration of God's True Nature on the Cross was misinterpreted under the context of a wrathful War God as somehow payment for our iniquities.
It was actually supposed to show who God really IS and be a demonstration of how God wants us to be. The doctrine has never recovered from that initial corruption and has been solidified by subsequent theological rationalizations and interpretations all using the wrathful God context from the OT.
It has been a travesty of primitive human ignorance, vanity, and hubris, IMO. But what do I know about doctrine? I just came to Christ because of the descriptions of what He did on the Cross exactly matching the consciousness I encountered in meditation.
It quickly became obvious to me that most of the doctrines clearly contradict the descriptions of Christ's reactions on the Cross and the attributes of the consciousness I encountered. So I reject the wrathful doctrines but completely accept Christ!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCCyou
I have always understood that 'not sparing the flock' was echoing Jesus warning that 'as they hated me they will hate you also' ; including martyrdom, which happened then, and continues even now today (slaughter of Christians in Africa, Mid-east, etc) - and will continue to until 'their full number' is accounted (Rev 6:9-11)
I also feel that while there is not perfect unity among all Christians, I don't see them openly supporting slaughtering one another (except those who cannot speak/defend themselves, but that topic is forbidden here).
I would have to argue that Paul uses explicit terms that eliminate the possibility of a total apostasy in his letter to the Ephesians:
<snip>
The flaw in the implementation of the Church was in placing faith and trust in mere men to stay true to what Christ taught and exemplified on the Cross. The exact opposite has been the result. Christ was supposed to be the cornerstone and the standard of truth upon which the ecclesia was built, NOT a bunch of men using their own primitive understanding based on their traditions and beliefs about their War God.
Jesus was rejected precisely because He was the absolute opposite of a War God which was completely incomprehensible to our ancestors who knew no other God. That was the source of the apostasy that completely ended up misinterpreting what Jesus did on the Cross as appeasement of their wrathful and vengeful War God for "whatever"!!! It has been downhill over the millennia ever since with ever greater and greater evils and flaws among the so-called apostolic successors!!!
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