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It is impossible for the "rapture" or "snatching away" to have already taken place. Romans 11:25,26 show that the filling up of the believers of the nations must take place before Christ returns.
The rapture is comprised of all the dead in Christ being roused out of their tombs and the living believers being changed and together, at the same time, meet the Lord in the air
1Th 4:16-17 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."
The sad part to me is that Christians are earnestly seeking signs in the natural (carnal) realm, while God - who is spirit - is working in the spirit realm and will (I believe) come by His spirit on all flesh.
This revelation will be just that - a tearing away of the blinders we as Christians are blinded by. We do not see our God as He is.
And yet God will open up all the tombs at the same time of all believers of the nations and cause them to come out and with those alive at that time lift them off the earth to ever be with the Lord.
Interesting that Peter, James and John and the other disciples know of no rapture into the air but they remain on the earth for the next two ages.
The "rapture" is far behind us. It is the worldview among many Christians today which looks for an escape from this world that is one of the primary reasons the Church does not impact the world! A worldview that promotes growing wickedness and a time of total destruction leaves people with no incentive to resist the inevitable. Here is the irony--the very thing which Kelly promotes (the "rapture") is the very thing that is causing the Church to act in the way with which he finds fault!
Preterist
2 Timothy 2:16-18 (NIV) - 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Apparently Paul was not a preterist... and neither am I.
2 Timothy 2:16-18 (NIV) - 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Apparently Paul was not a preterist... and neither am I.
mams: Why would Paul be a preterist? He wrote about things which were to him still future but very near--things to occur in his generation.
Also, what is the context of 2 Timothy 2:16-18, mams? This grabbing verses out of context and throwing them in an accusatory way at fellow believers is very disturbing to me. I caution all again, myself included, that we be very careful about using verses out of context to accuse one another of alleged crimes against the faith.
What resurrection were Hymenaeus and Philetus teaching? Just because whatever it was had not yet occurred in Paul's day does not demand that it still has not already happened in our day!
It is easy and tempting to use a verse or passage from the Bible because on the surface it seems to condemn someone we oppose, but one must always remember that such accusations were made against specific people during specific times. To use those same accusations against different people of different times because they seem to apply must be done with the utmost caution--if at all! Let's please be careful! Thank you.
It is impossible for the "rapture" or "snatching away" to have already taken place. Romans 11:25,26 show that the filling up of the believers of the nations must take place before Christ returns.
The rapture is comprised of all the dead in Christ being roused out of their tombs and the living believers being changed and together, at the same time, meet the Lord in the air
1Th 4:16-17 for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first, (17) Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord."
The above has never taken place yet.
Eusebius
No, Eusebius, it has not happened yet--according to the way in which you and most futurists insist that it must. It is an assumption (a false one) that physical bodies were to pop up out of their graves. That is not what Paul is teaching. Furthermore, study the context of 1 Corinthians 15--again, WE are not the YE. Paul is definitely including himself in the events he is describing. HE and those to whom he first wrote were to be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The same is true of 1 Thes. 4--when Paul uses "we," he means to include himself and those of his generation (all believers subsequently have a part in this).
The biggest hindrance to understanding today is the refusal to place things in their context and to acknowledge audience relevance. Another unfortunate problem is the misunderstanding of the nature of Christ's return and the nature of the resurrection and the nature of the judgment. As long as people continue to be taught that Christ must come visibly and physically to all the entire world all at the same time and touch His actual feet on the earth; as long as people believe that the resurrection involves the physical bodies of EVERYONE who has ever lived popping up out of graves all at the same time; as long as people continue to believe that the judgment is some end- of-the-world, all-inclusive event, the Scriptures will continue to be misunderstood.
Read 2 Thessalonians 2, Eusebius. To whom was the Lord going to appear? To whom was He going to give rest? Whom was He going to trouble with the same trouble that had been given to those very Thessalonians and other saints of THAT day?
His coming and the resurrection and the judgment have not happened--IN THE WAY YOU INSIST THEY MUST. But they have happened--IN THE WAY THE SCRIPTURES INSISTED THEY MUST! Respectfully, Eusebius, your timing is off because your understanding is off.
2 Timothy 2:16-18 (NIV) - 16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
Apparently Paul was not a preterist... and neither am I.
Well said! It is amazing to me that we have all these people writing books proclaiming that the resurrection and catching away takes place at the return of Jesus to set up His millennial kingdom or that it has already taken place, when Paul clearly outlined the day of the Lord in two phases, first, in I Thes. 4:16 he describes the resurrection and catching away and second, the wrath of God, which follows. In the above verse 2 Timothy 2:16, the reason that the faith of some could be destroyed is because, if there were those saying that the day of the Lord had already come and those who belong to Christ had not been changed and caught up, then the only thing left would be the wrath of God for them, so that they would no longer be hoping in the promise. The resurrection and catching away will not take place until the fulness of the church has been completed, then Christ will call those who belong to him, both the dead and the living. After that, the wrath of God will be poured out and there will be many who come to Christ durng the tribulation/great tribulation period. The remnant of those who take their stand for Jesus and the word of God, who make it through to the end of the age when Christ returns to set up His kingdom, will be those who repopulate the earth during the millennium. If you have the resurrection taking place at the return of Christ when He sets up His kingdom, then you have no mortal human beings to enter into the millennium because all those in Christ will be resurrected and the wicked will have all been gathered together by the angels (one taken) and brought to the valley of Megiddo where all of the kings and armies of the world will have been gathered together by the three evil spirits, where they are all killed by the double-edged sword that procedes from the mouth of the Lord (word of God). In that senarrio, there would be no one left to enter the millennium.
No, Eusebius, it has not happened yet--according to the way in which you and most futurists insist that it must. It is an assumption (a false one) that physical bodies were to pop up out of their graves. That is not what Paul is teaching. Furthermore, study the context of 1 Corinthians 15--again, WE are not the YE. Paul is definitely including himself in the events he is describing. HE and those to whom he first wrote were to be changed in the twinkling of an eye. The same is true of 1 Thes. 4--when Paul uses "we," he means to include himself and those of his generation (all believers subsequently have a part in this).
The biggest hindrance to understanding today is the refusal to place things in their context and to acknowledge audience relevance. Another unfortunate problem is the misunderstanding of the nature of Christ's return and the nature of the resurrection and the nature of the judgment. As long as people continue to be taught that Christ must come visibly and physically to all the entire world all at the same time and touch His actual feet on the earth; as long as people believe that the resurrection involves the physical bodies of EVERYONE who has ever lived popping up out of graves all at the same time; as long as people continue to believe that the judgment is some end- of-the-world, all-inclusive event, the Scriptures will continue to be misunderstood.
Read 2 Thessalonians 2, Eusebius. To whom was the Lord going to appear? To whom was He going to give rest? Whom was He going to trouble with the same trouble that had been given to those very Thessalonians and other saints of THAT day?
His coming and the resurrection and the judgment have not happened--IN THE WAY YOU INSIST THEY MUST. But they have happened--IN THE WAY THE SCRIPTURES INSISTED THEY MUST! Respectfully, Eusebius, your timing is off because your understanding is off.
Preterist
The preterists believe that Zechariah 14 has already taken place.
The preterists believe that v4)''And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem in the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south,'' has already taken place.
Oh, no. Wait. The preterists allergorise it. But, Oh No! Wait. In 1967, a U.S. Geological survey discovered a geological fault line running through the Mount of Olives, just waiting for the return of the Lord to set off the earthquake to open up an escape route for the defenders of Jerusalem to flee through when the armies of the antichrist advance on Jerusalem.
The preterists believe that v16) ''Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, The Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.'' has already taken place. (This of course is despite the fact that only one nation--the Roman Empire, destroyed Jerusalem in 70A.D; and of course despite the fact that all the nations are not going to Jerusalem to worship Christ.)
What is a preterist to do? WAIT!!! Let's just ignore it. Problem solved!!!
The preterists believe that Zechariah 14 has already taken place.
The preterists believe that v4)''And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem in the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south,'' has already taken place.
Oh, no. Wait. The preterists allergorise it. But, Oh No! Wait. In 1967, a U.S. Geological survey discovered a geological fault line running through the Mount of Olives, just waiting for the return of the Lord to set off the earthquake to open up an escape route for the defenders of Jerusalem to flee through when the armies of the antichrist advance on Jerusalem.
Um.. there is a road there now.. so I don't know why there would be a need for it to split in two. It's really more of a hill than a mountain.
Take a look at Micah 1:3-4 which was fulfilled around 720 BC..
3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth. 4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
There was no visible Lord coming down and treading on mountains causing them to melt... You are too funny!
Also, there are two major fault lines in the region. Mt Carmel fault line which is far to the north of the Mount of Olives, and the Dead Sea fault line which is on the opposite side of the Dead Sea from Mount of Olives... Where do you get your information? Are you talking about a minor fault line? Because there are tons of them in that region that are relatively normal and not worthy of special note...
Quote:
The preterists believe that v16) ''Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, The Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.'' has already taken place. (This of course is despite the fact that only one nation--the Roman Empire, destroyed Jerusalem in 70A.D; and of course despite the fact that all the nations are not going to Jerusalem to worship Christ.)
What is a preterist to do? WAIT!!! Let's just ignore it. Problem solved!!!
Do you know what the feast of booths/feast of tabernacles is? It was the Last feast of the year. It was where men lived in temporary booths for 7-9 days (9 days now I believe and 7+1 in the 1st century) then after the week or so they went back to their permanent residences. All of this is symbolic of the temporary transition to the permanent in the culmination of the year of harvest...
Also, it is common knowledge that at that time (1st century AD) the Roman Empire consisted of people from all nations. But more importantly.. the symbolic use of Jewish feasts is clear throughout prophecy..
Explain to me, if you will, why you pick Zech. as literal in that Jesus sets his feet upon the Mount of Olives but not that he will be riding a white horse in Rev... So does the horse also land on the Mount or does Jesus jump off the horse and land on the mountain?
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Well said!
