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Um.. there is a road there now.. so I don't know why there would be a need for it to split in two. It's really more of a hill than a mountain.
Take a look at Micah 1:3-4 which was fulfilled around 720 BC..
3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth. 4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
There was no visible Lord coming down and treading on mountains causing them to melt... You are too funny!
Also, there are two major fault lines in the region. Mt Carmel fault line which is far to the north of the Mount of Olives, and the Dead Sea fault line which is on the opposite side of the Dead Sea from Mount of Olives... Where do you get your information? Are you talking about a minor fault line? Because there are tons of them in that region that are relatively normal and not worthy of special note...
Do you know what the feast of booths/feast of tabernacles is? It was the Last feast of the year. It was where men lived in temporary booths for 7-9 days (9 days now I believe and 7+1 in the 1st century) then after the week or so they went back to their permanent residences. All of this is symbolic of the temporary transition to the permanent in the culmination of the year of harvest...
Also, it is common knowledge that at that time (1st century AD) the Roman Empire consisted of people from all nations. But more importantly.. the symbolic use of Jewish feasts is clear throughout prophecy..
Explain to me, if you will, why you pick Zech. as literal in that Jesus sets his feet upon the Mount of Olives but not that he will be riding a white horse in Rev... So does the horse also land on the Mount or does Jesus jump off the horse and land on the mountain?
Well said....when will 21st century people stop using 1st century scripture to fulfill their 21st century false fantasies? Wake up people....Jesus is not going to stand on the dirt again....ever! Quit reading the bible and trying to place events that occurred in the 1st century as happening now. All the scripture twisting, fantastical notions and phantasmagorical descriptions you give prophecy will not change the fact that it's over and done with. Start living in the Kingdom now...like you're supposed to.
I would like the "literalists" of prophecy to respond to these questions that I posted in another forum but were left unanswered:
I'm am just really and seriously curious about something...why is it that "literalists" take a book of symbols (Revelation, Isaiah, Jermiah, Ezekiel), read it "literally" and espouse that those "literal" things are going to happen?
But when Jesus said:
Mt 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, John (the Baptist) himself is Elijah who was to come.
Mt 17:10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things;
12 but I say to you that Elijah already came (John the Baptist), and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
Mk 9:11 They asked Him, saying, "Why is it that the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
12 And He said to them, "Elijah does first come and restore all things. And yet how is it written of the Son of Man that He will suffer many things and be treated with contempt? 13 "But I say to you that Elijah has indeed come (John the Baptist), and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him."
Lk 1:17 "It is he (John the Baptist) who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
The above are all a fulfillment of this prophecy:
Mal 4:5 "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.
Mt 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Mt 24:32 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
33 so, you too (the Apostles), when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Mk 13:28 "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.
29 "Even so, you too (the Apostles), when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 30 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Lk 11:49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute,
50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'
Lk 21:29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;
30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 "So you also, when you see (the Apostles) these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place.
These clear and precise words of Jesus are either ignored, twisted or given some false meaning.
When I read these things...it clearly says that Jesus would return before the people He was speaking to, those in the generation He was speaking to, would die.
I really am curious how "literalists" justify taking a book of symbols and give it "literal" meaning by a "literal" read and then ignore other "literal" clear and precise statments that Jesus expressly made giving the time of His return?
Um.. there is a road there now.. so I don't know why there would be a need for it to split in two. It's really more of a hill than a mountain.
Take a look at Micah 1:3-4 which was fulfilled around 720 BC..
3 Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth. 4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart,
like wax before the fire,
like water rushing down a slope.
There was no visible Lord coming down and treading on mountains causing them to melt... You are too funny!
Also, there are two major fault lines in the region. Mt Carmel fault line which is far to the north of the Mount of Olives, and the Dead Sea fault line which is on the opposite side of the Dead Sea from Mount of Olives... Where do you get your information? Are you talking about a minor fault line? Because there are tons of them in that region that are relatively normal and not worthy of special note...
Do you know what the feast of booths/feast of tabernacles is? It was the Last feast of the year. It was where men lived in temporary booths for 7-9 days (9 days now I believe and 7+1 in the 1st century) then after the week or so they went back to their permanent residences. All of this is symbolic of the temporary transition to the permanent in the culmination of the year of harvest...
Also, it is common knowledge that at that time (1st century AD) the Roman Empire consisted of people from all nations. But more importantly.. the symbolic use of Jewish feasts is clear throughout prophecy..
Explain to me, if you will, why you pick Zech. as literal in that Jesus sets his feet upon the Mount of Olives but not that he will be riding a white horse in Rev... So does the horse also land on the Mount or does Jesus jump off the horse and land on the mountain?
Quote:
Explain to me, if you will, why you pick Zech. as literal in that Jesus sets his feet upon the Mount of Olives.
Acts 1:11&12
Quote:
but not that he will be riding a white horse in Rev.
While His return is literal in Rev. 19 the way Christ is portaryed; riding white horse, sword from His mouth, eyes like flaming fire, cloths dipped in blood, tells us the horse, etc. etc. is symbolic.
Quote:
There was no visible Lord coming down and treading on mountains causing them to melt... You are too funny!
Just remember Christ is coming with rewards and punishment. I wouldn't be so quick to laugh if I were you. Be very careful God will not be mocked!
Last edited by mshipmate; 10-22-2009 at 09:24 AM..
While His return is literal in Rev. 19 the way Christ is portaryed; sword from His mouth, eyes like flaming fire, cloths dipped in blood, etc etc. tells us the horse, etc. is symbolic.
That's just plain silly and silly logic...of course it's not your fault that you think like this...it's just what you've been taught. If you are not aware of the way the Jewish people used figurative language when speaking of the judgments of God you will never understand the NT and the figurative language Jesus used with the same intent and purpose.
Below is a description of the "Day of the Lord" or a judgment of God which was carried out against Babylon by the Medes which we also know has already occurred. God did not literally come down to earth and do these things...He came in the form of the Medes, whom He used to carry out His purposes.
Isa 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man's heart will melt.
8 They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
12 I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
14 And it will be that like a hunted gazelle,
Or like sheep with none to gather them,
They will each turn to his own people,
And each one flee to his own land.
15 Anyone who is found will be thrust through,
And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces
Before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.
Have any of these "literal" things happened? No...the stars are right where they've always been and the earth hasn't moved either...the is figurative language which portrays a literal event. Compare the above with Mt 24 & Revelation and you will find the same type of language (which is supposedly the end times scenario). Jesus did not "literally" come in a cloud in 70 AD against the Jews but came in the form of the Roman army to destroy them and their temple...just like He said He would. They, the Jews, understood what this meant when He said it to them. This is the point we are trying to make....Jesus is not going to "literally" stand anywhere. This is figurative language and has a completely different meaning that the "literalist" cannot see because they are looking for these "literal" events to happen.
Last edited by ChristyGrl; 10-22-2009 at 10:04 AM..
While His return is literal in Rev. 19 the way Christ is portaryed; riding white horse, sword from His mouth, eyes like flaming fire, cloths dipped in blood, tells us the horse, etc. etc. is symbolic.
Yet a hill (which is really what the mount of olives is) is split in two to create a valley? Have you ever seen the mount of olives? I mean if there were an earthquake that split it in two... it is so close to Jerusalem that all would be lost. So you take Rev. 19 literally in that a sword comes out of his mouth and birds eat all the flesh?
Quote:
Just remember Christ is coming with rewards and punishment. I wouldn't be so quick to laugh if I were you. Be very careful God will not be mocked!
I sincerely doubt God's ego is so fragile that by mocking him he will rain fire down on me.
My God has no use for an ego as he is God.... not human.
Besides.. If you think about John being in a cave and seeing a vision.. would ANY of what he say be deemed literal? It was a vision... a dream...
a sign.. but not literal at any point. IMHO
Christy, when you ask intelligent questions that challenge the literal interpretations of these prophecies, this is the kind of answer you will ALWAYS receive from futurists:
Quote:
Just remember Christ is coming with rewards and punishment. I wouldn't be so quick to laugh if I were you. Be very careful God will not be mocked!
Vague, threatening, devoid of any substance.
I will answer your question for them, since the futurists here have no intelligent answers to respond with. I say that in love because I was once in that exact same position. When someone challenged me on the sheer lunacy of my canned speeches of these events all I could do was sputter in response.
Futurists do NOT study the Bible. Week after week, year after year they sit in front of the tube and listen to the same baloney that van IMP, Jeffers and Lindsley throw out at the cameras. Then when the topic of end times comes up they just regurgitate what they've been listening to week and week, year after year. For futurists, study and discovery of what the scriptures truly say does not exist. For them it's, "Well, Lindsey and Jeffers said it so it must be true" It's a form of brainwashing--a televangelist prophecy pimp hammers into their minds week after week, year after year "Zechariah, And His feet shall touch down on the Mount of Olives and it will split in two. Imagine how spectacular that will look---our Lord coming down from the clouds, His feet touching the earth for the first time in 2000 years and a giant earthquake immediately slicing the mount into halves. What a sight that will be, I'm telling you, folks, it will be marvelous!" And futurists hear this year after year and they start forming these images in their mind of beautiful special-effects movie scenes and just go into ecstasies at the thought of Jesus physically riding to the earth on a beautiful white stallion like a knight in shiny armor with them in tow. Now they are hooked and in their enthusiasm they want to tell the whole world of the marvelous events that are about to happen. So they start parroting everything Lindsey threw at them to anyone who will listen--never giving a thought to the impracticality, the physical impossibility, or the sheer error of what they are saying. If they'd just turns the boobs on the tube off and take a few hours stop and actually OPEN the Bible and do a little studying and compare these verses with other similar scriptures that are purely metaphorical a light bulb might go on over their heads; they might finally come to the realization that Jesus is NOT going to actually physically return to earth.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 10-22-2009 at 10:41 AM..
Christy, when you ask intelligent questions that challenge the literal interpretations of these prophecies, this is the kind of answer you will ALWAYS receive from futurists:
Vague, threatening, devoid of any substance.
I will answer your question for them, since the futurists here have no intelligent answers to respond with. I say that in love because I was once in that exact same position. When someone challenged me on the sheer lunacy of my canned speeches of these events all I could do was sputter in response.
Futurists do NOT study the Bible. Week after week, year after year they sit in front of the tube and listen to the same baloney that van IMP, Jeffers and Lindsley throw out at the cameras. Then when the topic of end times comes up they just regurgitate what they've been listening to week and week, year after year. For futurists, study and discovery of what the scriptures truly say does not exist. For them it's, "Well, Lindsey and Jeffers said it so it must be true" It's a form of brainwashing--a televangelist prophecy pimp hammers into their minds week after week, year after year "Zechariah, And His feet shall touch down on the Mount of Olives and it will split in two. Imagine how spectacular that will look---our Lord coming down from the clouds, His feet touching the earth for the first time in 2000 years and a giant earthquake immediately slicing the mount into halves. What a sight that will be, I'm telling, folks, it will be marvelous!" And futurists hear this year after year and they start forming these images in their mind of beautiful movie-effects scenes and just go into ecstasies at the thought of Jesus physically riding to the earth on a beautiful white stallion with them in tow like a knight in shiny armor. Now they are hooked and in their enthusiasm they want to tell the whole world of the marvelous events that are about to happen. So they start parroting everything Lindsey threw at them to anyone who will listen--never giving a thought to the impracticality, the physical impossibility, or the sheer error of what they are saying. If they'd just turns the boobs on the tube off and take a few hours stop and actually OPEN the Bible and do a little studying and compare these verses with other similar scriptures that are purely metaphorical a light bulb might go on over their heads; they might realize that Jesus is NOT going to actually physically come to earth.
I already knew I would get no plausible answer from the "Futurist" camp. Just yesterday I was driving home from work listening to Faith radio and they had Jimmy DeYoung...their prophecy expert telling how all the poopie that's going in Israel is just prophecy coming alive...what a crock. Unfortunately...I had to turn it off because I couldn't take the mindless blather any longer. It's gotten to the point where you can't even listen to a Christian radio station without listening to it and what's more amazing is that soooooo many people mindlessly and blindly believe this garbage without ever looking into it themselves.
THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND....EVENTUALLY THEY WILL ALL FALL INTO THE PIT! (paraphrase)
"You cannot have God and have fear too. Every fear represents a disbelief in God at that moment." Wayne Dyer
Those who don't study the bible seem to fear everything. I fear nothing. God is with me everyday, all day. It is the fear these people promote that is a disbelief in the very nature of God..
I have been told God would strike me down for saying some of the things I have said here and in "real" life, yet I still retain my life...
I wonder how people can say these things with a straight face.. where do they learn these things?
I already knew I would get no plausible answer from the "Futurist" camp. Just yesterday I was driving home from work listening to Faith radio and they had Jimmy DeYoung...their prophecy expert telling how all the poopie that's going in Israel is just prophecy coming alive...what a crock. Unfortunately...I had to turn it off because I couldn't take the mindless blather any longer. It's gotten to the point where you can't even listen to a Christian radio station without listening to it and what's more amazing is that soooooo many people mindlessly and blindly believe this garbage without ever looking into it themselves.
THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND....EVENTUALLY THEY WILL ALL FALL INTO THE PIT! (paraphrase)
Christy, guys like Jimmy DeYoung are so savvy when it comes to money and human psychology it's scary. They know that all they have to do to get the dough rolling in is to start talking about all these grand visions of the future, with lambs lying with lions and all of us lying around in Paradise popping grapes into our mouthes and Christians who are listening get so hyped up that by the time they pull into their garage they are literally rushing into the house to get out their checkbooks to write out a donation to DeYoung. I repeat--these guys are so street-wise when it comes to generating money they put used car salesmen to shame.
When the Christian community gets united behind something we’re a force to be reckoned with. The 2004 Presidential election was a good example. Many of those 35 million extra votes George Bush got were from Evangelical Christians.
Somehow i just don't think that the fact that 35 million Christians voted for George bush actually lends credence to the doctrine of the rapture ...
I mean i personally hope there is a pre-tribulation rapture ... But you know what i mean ...
Skull and bones anyone? ... Anyone?
Patriot act anyone? ... Anyone?
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