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Of course that means God Himself is reading directly to you correct? I saw your posts about trying to learn in Greek and Hebrew, but let's face it, you will never understand the two languages anywhere near as well as of those that used it daily two thousand plus years ago. You must rely upon the passed along understanding of these languages including idioms, style, and local current events of the day, many of which have long since been lost. No copy of the "original" documents exists that is within 1,000 years of when the orignals did actually exist.
So, YEAH, there is a lot of room for error, starting with ourselves and our wicked hearts. We all have, mostly, the same study resources available to us here in the 21st century. And God's spirit is equally able to teach all of us today as when Noah was cruising around in his God designed Yacht. So don't get too pompous on me and don't be so quick to assume no on else here studies Greek or Hebrew either.
There's a difference in studying the language and studying a few words of the bible. Most people on here, don't get me wrong only do word studies. MOst over half don't even try to educate themselves to really have an understanding of what is really being said in the bible
I don't think that I'm any better than someone who only does word studies, but a person has to step outside of the english bible and go back to the hebrew and greek language.
I'm tired of reading cut and paste and listening to people use the arguements of the people who study the bible. It is good to use the information of the people who study the bible, but you must have an understanding for yourself, not just the english version.
A person who sits under scholars and are deeply taught will know the hebrew and greek bible better than someone who only knows the english version and who does word studies. Until then a person can't really fully get the full meaning of the text.
God's spirit is able to teach anyone. But what does God's Word say? Study and show yourself approved. Have God's spirit taught you hebrew and greek, or do you have to be taught like me? I take it you get my point.
ii timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It just ticks me off when you listen to people who only study one version of the bible who don't have a clue to what is really being said.
The forums rules state that instead of plagiarising anyones work we are required to post links, so again why are you trying so hard debase everyone else as though, going to seminary automatically makes you the absolute authority? Most of the apostles never attended seminary.....
And just because you read the bible in Hebrew and Greek, does NOT mean you are catching ever nuiance. Assuredly there is room for learning from others that have studied before you.
I said nothing about authority, I said I would rather study then cut and paste. Yes, you can post, but why not have an understanding for yourself so you want have to cut and paste. All you would have to do is tell what you know.
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Assuredly there is room for learning from others that have studied before you
That's the point of why I study and learn from people who have diligently studied the bible and I advise others to try to do the same.
I'm not trying to discredit anyone, but if people want to read nothing but cut and paste all we have to do is look up the information for ourself.
If I want to hear your idea of John 1, I want to hear it from you. But if you copy and past it, then all you did was tell me what someone else wrote about it. If that was the case I could have just went and type it in on google.
In my past post I have cut and paste things that I wanted to say out of my lazyness of me not wanting to put things into my own words. But I found the error in that and stop doing it. If I copy in paste as I did in the past, then I'm not truely telling what I know, but what someone know, but I just paste it.
It's the lazy way to debate.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 06-15-2009 at 06:39 PM..
Miss Shawn said "I don't think that I'm any better than someone who only does word studies"
Where did that come from when no one is accusing you ?
I got the idea because it seemed that He was trying to imply that I was saying that.
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so again why are you trying so hard debase everyone else as though, going to seminary automatically makes you the absolute authority? Most of the apostles never attended seminary.....
I'm not trying to discredit anyone. I'm personally tired of reading cut and paste when I ask someone about a particular scripture.
I wish people would step outside of the english bible long enough to understand the full meaning. In that case we have to understand and learn where the bible came from, and there are some that haven't gone through that, but they argue up and down that they know and understand that bible for what it is.
I said nothing about authority, I said I would rather study then cut and paste. Yes, you can post, but why not have an understanding for yourself so you want have to cut and paste. All you would have to do is tell what you know.
That's the point of why I study and learn from people who have diligently studied the bible and I advise others to try to do the same.
I'm not trying to discredit anyone, but if people want to read nothing but cut and paste all we have to do is look up the information for ourself.
If I want to hear your idea of John 1, I want to hear it from you. But if you copy and past it, then all you did was tell me what someone else wrote about it. If that was the case I could have just went and type it in on google.
When i think of the patriarchs i am pretty sure they couldn't give a dickie bird about studying . Yes they did study but they studied the heart of God,they knew God in their experience and relationship with Him.
We today have something far better than they could have ever imagined and yet we reduce this wonderful revelation of knowing the heart of the Father to defending tradition and church doctrine.
This is the same interpretation game JW's play when using the word "worship" "proskuneo" to "obeisance".
I have read all your responses and I thank you for taking part but I have seen nothing to prove that us being with God is eternal when the same term is used for both? My conclusion is us being with the Lord is NOT eternal.
Your conclusion can not be, because it is a fact that AIONION consequences of sin can and will be undone by Jesus Christ. Yet "so shall we ever be with the LORD"
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the OLAM (AIONION lxx) wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Does this passage not show that the AIONION Lord Jesus Christ will repair some AIONION wastes? The problem is, you assume that AIONION must refer to some fixed duration in time. But scripture shows that this can not be since AIONION is applied to God as well as to things that have limited duration.
What I get purely from usage is this: With respect to quality & quantity - perfect and complete.
When i think of the patriarchs i am pretty sure they couldn't give a dickie bird about studying . Yes they did study but they studied the heart of God,they knew God in their experience and relationship with Him.
We today have something far better than they could have ever imagined and yet we reduce this wonderful revelation of knowing the heart of the Father to defending tradition and church doctrine.
Actually I do agree with you because everything is not in the bible. When you are giving the spirit of God, He will reveal secrets in ways that the bible can't or He will unravel something in the bible that someone who didn't have God spirit to understand.
Learning about the bible want measure up to spending time with God, but the more time that you spend with God, you will naturally want to know His Word.
So, they both go hand and hand.
So, for me it's not about going to school to know better than anyone else, it's about really having the best knowledge and understanding for myself, so I can know for myself. I don't want to rely on someone to tell me what's in the bible. God wants us to know and understand, so I know that I have to be taught to be able to teach others that don't have the money to attend school.
There's a difference in studying the language and studying a few words of the bible. Most people on here, don't get me wrong only do word studies. MOst over half don't even try to educate themselves to really have an understanding of what is really being said in the bible
I don't think that I'm any better than someone who only does word studies, but a person has to step outside of the english bible and go back to the hebrew and greek language.
I'm tired of reading cut and paste and listening to people use the arguements of the people who study the bible. It is good to use the information of the people who study the bible, but you must have an understanding for yourself, not just the english version.
A person who sits under scholars and are deeply taught will know the hebrew and greek bible better than someone who only knows the english version and who does word studies. Until then a person can't really fully get the full meaning of the text.
God's spirit is able to teach anyone. But what does God's Word say? Study and show yourself approved. Have God's spirit taught you hebrew and greek, or do you have to be taught like me? I take it you get my point.
ii timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
It just ticks me off when you listen to people who only study one version of the bible who don't have a clue to what is really being said.
I completely agree with everything you've stated here. Exegesis is essential to set context for full hermeneutics. Without understanding the intent of the author(s) including the impositions; political, social, language idioms, forms of writing, etc., it is impossible to surmize the correct intent of the author. And without understanding, to the best degree available now 2000+ years later, it is foolish to apply scriptures to the here and now. I couldn't agree with your points more. In fact, the lack thereof, is why there are so many variations of theology in today's world. We are completely in agreement on these points.
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Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828
I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over. I'm studying the Hebrew and Greek text, not the english text unlike most who don't spend the time to study it. MOst if all only look up a few words.
I don't need to look at your link when I have the original bible in front of me.
This is why it sounded like you were suggesting that you didn't need to consider any one else's points, you sounded like it is ok for you to dismiss everyone else's perspective, because you were studying Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic(I presume), and that therefore nothing and no one else might understand the "truth" more than you. Probably not your intent to sound exclusive and lofty?
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Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828
But if you copy and past it, then all you did was tell me what someone else wrote about it.
In general I agree, however, when you simply recapitulate what you have been taught by your teacher, that is another form of copy/pasting. Is it not?
I believe it is key to use as many cross references, commentaries, historical cross references, and exegesis studies as possible from assorted authors, coupled with language studies, because languages do change and the associated idioms change also, thereby decreasing the chances of understanding, by reading just the words alone. Just like if you were to read english text written only 300-400 years ago, you would find it difficult to impossible to fully comprehend the author's intent because of the language progression. Now take the 3 languages of the original bible, and add 2,000-3,500 years of lanuage and time period changes, you can see that creates problems understanding the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic here in the 21st century......
The more reference material and commentary that can be found, that is closest in time to the original writings, helps to expand our ability to relate to the text studied. Further, anyone that has studied the bible in detail also understands that there is NO SINGULAR ORIGINAL TEXT in existence today! There are about 5,000 assorted manuscripts(hand written copies of copies) in many languages around the globe and NOT ONE perfectly matchs any other! Certainly you know this already, but this is why I was concerned when your statements implied you were studying the "TRUE" version of the bible (my paraphase).
All these points aside, I applaud your efforts, truly.
I agree that studying a single word is far away from being a Greek scholar, I'm convinced there would be Greek professors who have 100% differently opinions on this subject.
it is indisputable that aiónios can mean limited duration (also in the NT and Septuagint), it is not necessary to prove that aiónios never meant eternal to defend universalism, though it would be an advantage of course; but it is enough to prove that it does not always mean eternal, even St. Augustine had to admit this.
there are also several examples where Greek eis ton aióna, sometimes translated "forever", "to eternity", or "into the age" can at most mean for lifetime in the Septuagint (e.g. Dt. 15:17, 1Sam. 27:12, Psalm 73:12).
I completely agree with everything you've stated here. Exegesis is essential to set context for full hermeneutics. Without understanding the intent of the author(s) including the impositions; political, social, language idioms, forms of writing, etc., it is impossible to surmize the correct intent of the author. And without understanding, to the best degree available now 2000+ years later, it is foolish to apply scriptures to the here and now. I couldn't agree with your points more. In fact, the lack thereof, is why there are so many variations of theology in today's world. We are completely in agreement on these points.
This is why it sounded like you were suggesting that you didn't need to consider any one else's points, you sounded like it is ok for you to dismiss everyone else's perspective, because you were studying Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic(I presume), and that therefore nothing and no one else might understand the "truth" more than you. Probably not your intent to sound exclusive and lofty?
In general I agree, however, when you simply recapitulate what you have been taught by your teacher, that is another form of copy/pasting. Is it not?
I believe it is key to use as many cross references, commentaries, historical cross references, and exegesis studies as possible from assorted authors, coupled with language studies, because languages do change and the associated idioms change also, thereby decreasing the chances of understanding, by reading just the words alone. Just like if you were to read english text written only 300-400 years ago, you would find it difficult to impossible to fully comprehend the author's intent because of the language progression. Now take the 3 languages of the original bible, and add 2,000-3,500 years of lanuage and time period changes, you can see that creates problems understanding the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic here in the 21st century......
The more reference material and commentary that can be found, that is closest in time to the original writings, helps to expand our ability to relate to the text studied. Further, anyone that has studied the bible in detail also understands that there is NO SINGULAR ORIGINAL TEXT in existence today! There are about 5,000 assorted manuscripts(hand written copies of copies) in many languages around the globe and NOT ONE perfectly matchs any other! Certainly you know this already, but this is why I was concerned when your statements implied you were studying the "TRUE" version of the bible (my paraphase).
All these points aside, I applaud your efforts, truly.
Quote:
This is why it sounded like you were suggesting that you didn't need to consider any one else's points, you sounded like it is ok for you to dismiss everyone else's perspective, because you were studying Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic(I presume), and that therefore nothing and no one else might understand the "truth" more than you. Probably not your intent to sound exclusive and lofty?
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so snappy, I'm just so use to people on here putting off debates and only posting links.
I personally like to hear someone put things into there own words than just posting a link.
I didn't mean to imply that I didn't need to read your link, I was only implying that I would rather have the bible in front of me, or the persons explanation before I read a link of what they wanted to show me.
I had this guy on here that told me about all this research that he had that proved that the bible was false. So, I asked him for what he called research, and he only provided me with links and sites. To me that's not research when it comes down to trying to see if the bible is false.
My idea of research is yes going online and looking up information, but some say, how can you go and research, and see if the bible is real.
But research is also going out to collect information.
Well, I told this guy that I personally went to Jerusalem, and personally went to places in the bible, and went to actual places that were in the bible.
I wasn't implying that me going to Jerusalem was better than him going online, but I implied that if he really wanted to see if the bible was real or false, then he would have to go where the bible was written.
Well, to make a long story short this guy blew up and relized his ignorance of trying to event this research that he never really had. Then he tried to discredit that I told him that I personally walked to and through places that are in the bible, because he didn't really have what he said that he had.
But this is not the first time that I have encountered people on here that make such claims with little to any proof.
So, sorry if I seem snappy, but I'm personally tired of people making statements when they haven't actually done anything to prove what they believe. I mostly read copy and paste articles of other peoples information posted by someone else.
I found error in doing that is why I stop and now try to the best of my ability to provide the person with what I know. I mean citi data forum is about debating and giving your opinion. Not just to copy and past what you think.
Sorry, for giving off the wrong idea, I was just a little frustrated with reading links and other things copied.
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