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You can repeat the lie from whatever version you can find. We all know there are looser versions, paraphrases that may have some value; but, not to determine with certainty what is Written. Being a Christian, the primary documents that I follow for what to believe and practise God chose to give in Greek and Hebrew. While I rely somewhat on many scholars, I've seen in my lifetime the imperative to be ever more vigilant in selectiong which scholars are reliable. In searching the Scriptures I never expected to uncover such overwhelming revelation concerning Institutional Christianity. It's claim to orthodoxy is fraudulent. Their authority is relative to one another in a religious bureachracy. Their titled elite may be the gatekeepers for those in their brandname cages; but, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." (Rv 18:2, AV)
The way you put it sounds like "they" whipped God at his own game; the Bible. I don't doubt some have attempted, but I am skeptical it has been so overwhelingly successful.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
The Scripture simply never says if any one is found to qualify for being cast into the lake of fire. Why is it so hard to admit it?
Are you able to hear "whosoever" is a questioning pronoun unanswered and, only a possibility, indefinate unless answered in the passage, which it is not? How many whosoevers, any or none?
Do you really think God would have taken the time to tell us things that "cannot" ever apply to any of us. It would seem to be a waste of time and space. Why the warning? Yes, I assume some will go, but it is also an assumption that none will go. Which is more realistic, false tranquility, or false wariness?
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
Try using this url. I've put it for my "home" in my browser so I can open it in another window for quick referece: Blue Letter Bible - Language Tools
Yes. My wife and I use BLB quite frequently. It is a great tool.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
"And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rv 20:15, CLT) Why did it not say, "One or many, none or at least some were found and cast into the lake of fire?" Why never an answer to the "if, whether?" It is so well established according to the advocates of ceaseless torture forever it should be no problem to turn to a couple of the many passages that actually do say something to that effect. (I know there aren't any. I am baiting you!)
Why do you require God to tell you how many, is it not enough that he provides the warning? What next...how about taking a very loose term like "all in all" and see what you can make of that? ()
A little Bible study and we are supposed to have forgotten what we're talking about. The minute there's a break in the clouds, that the English "hell" isn't used legitimately, covering up several things God was talking to us about, we need to get practical all of a sudden. We won't admit the truth, only that we should get back to basics, to chose the good and reject the bad, whatever they're called. Let's get stupider and stupider! It doen't matter what God actually says, we should maintain the cartoon version because people would be confused by the truth. Gag me with a spoon!
My point is that if I choose to say "a place hidden away" instead of Hades...gehenna...etc., why do some get concerned as the meaning is not lost whatsoever. Are there not significant similarities in each of these places? Not only that, but Revelation is clear that no matter what you call each of these that has been labeled "hell" those that have died and gone there will be given up and arrive at the throne of judgement.
Are you equally concerned that they have also added vowels to the original text? Or that the jigsaw puzzle of papyrus they dealt with in many instances was put together grossly incorrectly?
I don't want to spend the rest of eternity anywhere but with the Lord. He is very clear to say only those whose name is found in the book of life will do so.
I noted that there is a plethora of people who have learned a gimmick. Their teachers taught them to say the word: "we believe the Bible" without ever giving them the simple tools to determine what the Bible does or does not say. (The tools are concordances.) The Bible has little authority because people are ignorant of what is does or doesn't say. When I make an argument based on what is or is not written I notice it impacts few who care only to repeat what those in the religious sytems surrounding them have repeated. No chapter and verse: they are thought of as something "according to your interpretation," not authoritative decisively for faith and practice. If they truly believed the Bible they would be impressed by Bible facts.
It is true many do not take seriously enough what they believe, but that begs the question "do they believe?" as much as "what do they believe?"
The Bible's authority does not come from who understands what, but it is true one cannot really adhere to something they don't understand.
Please keep in mind not everyone can spend the amount of time you have in researching and examining scripture in multiple languages. Not that this is an excuse to blindly accept all that is taught either. However, at some point a student will give the teacher some credit, just as you seek credit for what you are writing with a certain authority. Also, we are many parts of one body. Do you do all plumbing, electrical, etc. for your house or do you sometimes have to call in someone more knowledgeable? You may say you do it to save time, but then that could be applied elsewhere too.
"He that goeth about as a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips." (Prv 20:19, AV)
"A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin." (Prv 26: 28, AV)
"A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet." (Prv 29:5, AV)
I didn't finish high school. Only got a GED;
Fantastic! I didn't say those things to flatter you. I simply meant that you put together well written, coherent, arguments (even if they seem intricately deep and wide to me at times). In fact, without knowing you or why you did not orignially finish high school, I would say you have proven clearly that you could have finished and finished well. Well Done!
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
but, I can read and use a few helps to Bible study. That seems to be avoided by the dispensationalists. Well, by about any in the demoninations (sp?) Real Bible study, from the first word in the first verse of a book consecutively all the way through to the last word in the last verse of that book, then on to the next book is like a bad word in todays religious scene.
This really depends on who you go to church with!
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
You pay the pastor/priest to do your studying for you. You've let them replace your functioning as a member of Christ's body, just like the rest in the audience. Pastor/priests prevent you from exercising all the gifts and blessings God gives you.
Pastors are paid because they devote their livelihood to their church. Otherwise, they pay thier own bills. Unless of course you think all pastors should be bi-vocational.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
Anybody who knows anything is eliminated as competion for the position of importance and the income of comfort enjoyed by the unbiblical elite. Accept their positions and you must accept the Order of Laymen, something totaly pagan.
Again, this really depends on who you go to church with.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
By His indwelling Spirit, all that Jesus is and does is in you and meant to be developed as you mature. I promise it ain't goin' to happen in the religious systems' brothels of Babylon. You "cannot find one man in a thousand, no, not in ten thousand." The sooner you leave it the sooner you can follow on to know the Lord. "Babylon is fallen and has become the cage for every foul and unclean bird." Look at the child molestation, openy practising homosexuals promoted to higher places in the bureachracy, the head of The National Association of Evangelicals involved for ten years in drugs and perverse sex with a male prostitute, the World Council of Churches funding terrorists, denial of basic beliefs of Christians for two millennia in these institutions, including denigration of the Bible. Gacy was a sunday school teacher in a Baptist Chruch. On and on it goes...
I haven't had a single pastor who was a child molester, homosexual, or been a drug user yet! What you say is concerning no matter where it is occurring, but you are breaking the rules of association in many instances. Just because a man goes down does not mean it is the fault of the church he was in, although it can be said some very large organized churches have put out some very wrong positions.
One of the things I have learned is that my pastor is only a man. I can question him or even doubt him if the Spirit leads me to do so. Too many people I know have had a bad situation with a leader which unfortunately leads them away from church altogether because they associated the bad acts of a man with the foundations of church itself.
My wife worked with a lady once who claimed to be Christian but then was found by others to be doing some very unChristian things. My wife overheard another co-worker who was not a Christian saying "if that is what a Christian is then I don't want to be one!" Mistake number one was the Christian's sinfulness. Mistake number two was the nonChristian's assumption that hypocracy in one doesn't mean all are hypocrites.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
"But I question how many times the same answers have to be given to the same people. Regarding your attitude about intentionally bringing a tortured baby into the world or not, like your attitude toward Rv 20:15, I remember my large cat that had to be wrapped in towels and held tightly to be given medicine. Even then I had to settle for getting bit. What kind of "forehead" do you have? Listen to what God told Ezekiel:
7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.
8 Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads.
9 As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. (Ezk 3:7-9, AV)
I had no attitude about "intentionally" bringing a tortured baby into the world. The question that was posed to me had such poor premise that it was an impossible question. It was trying to prove that God would be cruel if he allowed one of us to come into the world knowing we would end up in the lake of fire forever. The reason it was impossible is because the one posing the question refused to accept that God has a cure thus ruining any parrallel he was trying to create, by forcing me to be in a circumstance where I did not have a cure available. Against that God has indeed given me a hard forehead.
Would you have felt as good about yourself if your cat died instead of got better? Or did you trust your vet, you know, take him at his word?
We've only had "Pastors" since the end of the 1500's when a lot of out of work Priests got jobs and the Lutheran pietists started calling their Priests "Pastors." About as long as the Authorized, or, King James Version of the Bible has been around. There is no Biblical category corresponding to the modern practice of either Priest or Pastor, though the whole monoepiscopacy thing has taken over from the time of the so-called Church of the Bibshops. Across the millennia, we've had a few breakaway "revivals;" but, in olden days the Roman church sent out armies and suppressed them. Now they have magazines and television to maintain the inertia of recent tradition for the drowsy. The awakened, if they make any waves, are slandered by the caged, unless you live in China or North Korea of many other places where the state imprisons Jesus' People.
Just1Man said:
One of the things I have learned is that my pastor is only a man. I can question him or even doubt him if the Spirit leads me to do so. Too many people I know have had a bad situation with a leader which unfortunately leads them away from church altogether because they associated the bad acts of a man with the foundations of church itself.
I believe the people who are having intimate realtions with Institutional Christianity rather than the living God are Mystical Babylon. His people, some whom are being called out of Babylon, are those to whom the apostle is saying, "I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.' (2 Co 11:2-3, AV) Those in the Institutions have replaced the every member functioning of the Body of Christ with a performance on stage enabled by their audiences. Rather than, "The LORD is my shepherd," they practise, "The Pastor is my Lord." Why go on about it? Many people in those bureachracies have left them without needing to go back along with many who aren't going to go there.
Instead of ritualistic meetings or Reformation style "all a sermon," much of the Church in the USA is joining the majority worldwide to meet in their homes where they can function as the Eclessia, normally in a "round-table" structured gathering, though utilizing the "lecture-structure" when appropriate.
And I can say, knowing God, we normally expect extraordinary occurences because He likes to show-up and show-off. Anti-gifts of the Spirit doctrines and Bible haters don't characterize the "come-outers." A lot of false teaching is being replaced with sincere milk of the word and the deepest teachers, of which I'm aware, do understand that aspect of foundational or of the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ called "eternal judgments" in the KJV, which loosely means, "setting things right appropriate to the period of time in which they occur." God is Perfect in all His ways. This cannot ever mean ceaseless torture for ever for anything. He is good, not evil and not good and evil. God is love without respect of persons. With out the foundation of the true nature of God, or without at least a third to a half of it, men cannot build a sustaining structure for the presence of God of much significance. Conversely, with the presence of God manifesting among His people there is a corresponding formation in accordance with Him.
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 07-01-2009 at 04:07 PM..
The sequence of events for those at the throne of judgment in Rev 20:12-15 are first judgment, then, if their names are not found in the book of life, they are thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:8 specifically tells us of some that are thrown into the lake of fire they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If some are thrown in forever, why think some are later retrieved? The Bible doesn't tell us any are actually retrieved.
Those whose name is not found in the book of life are mentioned again in 21:27 where we are reminded they will not ever enter the city.
The river of the water of life flows from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city (Rev 22:1-2). Since those cast into the lake of fire neither had their names in the book of life nor are ever allowed into the city, it would seem very unlikely they would be the ones referred to in Rev 22:17 "let the one who is thirsty come".
In scripture fire has been shown:
1-not to consume at all (Moses and the burning bush)
2-to refine, not consuming but purifying
3-to consume entirely (Elijah and the priests of Baal)
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners of Zion are afraid; trembling has siezed the godless: "who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with the everlasting burnings?"
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Hi Just1Man,
Yes God is a consuming fire. That is what the Lake of fire is. Have you considered Isa 33:14 could be speaking about God? Who can dwell with the consuming fire [GOD]? The question is answered in the next verse:
Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously
and speaks what is right,
who rejects gain from extortion
and keeps his hand from accepting bribes,
who stops his ears against plots of murder
and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil- 16 this is the man who will dwell on the heights,
whose refuge will be the mountain fortress.
His bread will be supplied,
and water will not fail him.
Regarding Rev 20:8 - I think you had the wrong verse, maybe you meant Rev 20:10?
Rev 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages
If we take this literally, there are only 3 entities that are tormented "forever and ever" (to the ages of the ages): the beast, the false prophet, and the devil. It never says that all thrown into the lake of fire are tormented forever and ever.
We must be careful to not read anything into the scripture that is not there, and we must take into account everything in the bible: including the fact that God will reconcile ALL things to himself (Col 1:20) one day, and the fact that God has promised to bless ALL families (Gen 28:14) through Abraham's seed.
Anyway, its fine if you don't believe me. I've studied this most every day for a year and a half, and I'm still learning. Just don't expect to fully understand universal reconciliation from a few posts in a Christian debate forum. If you really want to study it, check out some good sites on it that have biblical backing.
Okay folks, I believe this thread has gone on long enough and so does the OP, so now I'm going to close it and you folks have a fine day..
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