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[quote=Just1Man;9493691
Why? Because US wants to infere a single word as "age-during" or "ages of ages" and reject the idea it refers to eternity. Try applying that translation in Revelation 15:7 when it refers to how long God lives. [/quote]
Revelation 15:7...
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever." (King James Version)
"...and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages..." (Young's Literal Translation)
"And one of the four animals gives to the seven messengers seven golden bowls brimming with the fury of God, Who is living for the eons of the eons. (Amen!)" (Concordant Literal Translation)
If I was the sheriff and a kid, whose folks I knew and respected, was caughtdoing a crime that, while it was wrong, didn't really hurt anyone, rather than ripping apart his life for several years, I might dismiss it after talking to him at length and making him understand what he was messing around with. I might say to him that in a sense he didn't get entirely get away with it because if I ever catch him again it will not go well with him. "...because, ya' know, I'm gonna be the Sheriff tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that." That doesn't mean I'll be the Sheriff for ever, or that I cease to exist once my days of being Sheriff are past.
I see from some other posts here you understand these are two plurals in the original, "ages of the ages. (The following is taken from the key at the bottom of this post.) The King James Translators basically left the doctrine of the eons in their version. 1.) It says "... the mystery which hath been hid from ages..." (Col 1:26, AV) This plural indicates a minimum of two ages in the past. 2.) A little difficult to get a direct satement in English that we are now in "the present age" with it being so often translated "world." Like, "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage..." (Lk 20:34, AV) though Jesus speaking in context here deals with the resurrection which is of the age to come. It's again, "...In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..." (2 Co 4:3, AV) "World" is eon, singular, an age of time in the Greek. 3.) Then, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:7, AV) Here the plural indicates at least two ages in the future. So with two past, + one present + two in the future, we have = a minimum total of five eons indicated. (2 + 1 + 2 = 5) Some have suggessted there are actually eight (8) ages referred to in Scripture, but here is the basic information. When Revelation speaks of, "...God, Who is living for the eons of the eons..." it is referring to the last two (2) eons. The Millennial Age, or Age of Tabernacles is the age or eon to come and it is an outcome of this present age. The last eon is the culminating outcome of all the ages! These are the last two (2) ages or eons. After that we continue with God after the purpose of the eons (Eph 1:9-11) will have been accomplished.
Listen to how Alexander Thompson of Edinburgh, Scotland expressed it: "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement “from everlasting to everlasting thou art God” (Psa.90:2) is literally “from age to age thou art God.” This does not limit God’s existence to the eons any more than the statement, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also. The same is true of the reference to Him as “the eonian God” (Rom.16:25,26)."
The eons have a beginning:
Heb 1:2 God made the eons; 1 Cor 2:7 before the eons; 2 Tim 1:9 before eonian times
They all end, individually and collectively:
Heb 9:26 end of the eons; 1 Co 10:11 ends of the eons; Mt 24:3 end of the eon
How many are there?
Col 1:26 hid from the eons (Past); Lk 20:34 this eon (Present); Eph 2:7 eons to come (Future)
The purpose of the eons
Eph 3:8-11, 1:9-11; Phil 2:9-11: Col 1:15-21; 1 Co 15:20-28
You began by saying I had a child "that would be born with a terrible disease." How else could I choose not to have that child if not by choosing to end/abort the child's life??
Is that what I said..let`s see what I really said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
If you knew if you had a child that child would be born with a terrible disease. A disease that would cause it to suffer unbearable pain all the days of it`s life. Pain that would never ease. The child would suffer night and day and never ever experience joy only excruciating pain every second of it`s existence. The child would cry out in agony endlessly every second of it`s life. Would you still choose to have that child?
Didn`t I say, IF you knew, IF you had a child. Did you catch the little word, IF in there? Not you already had a child...IF. I also stated in a follow up post to try to make it clearer for you, that if a doctor told you IF you had a child. I also stated I wasn`t talking about abortion because that was already a life. But BEFORE you had a child.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
you are missing the point just, or just playing dumb. I`m not talking about abortion. That is already a life. Try to follow me here.
If you wanted to have a child but the doctor told you the child would be deformed and suffer unbelievable pain EVERY SINGLE SECOND of it`s life because of some genetic mutation you had, WOULD YOU KNOWINGLY CHOOSE TO HAVE A CHILD? It`s a simple question.
You are saying that God created people knowing he would torture just about every one of them. So I am asking you a hypothetical question.
Please don`t tell me you don`t understand that simple question.
I`m not asking you a bunch of what if this and what if thats. It`s a simple straight forward question
You will have to come up with another excuse now. Do you see where I said..IF YOU WANTED TO HAVE A CHILD? There is that word again.. IF. Do you also see where I said I`m not talking about abortion? You obviously don`t want to answer and I understand. But at least just be truthful enough to admit it and not put words in my mouth and knowingly distort what I said.
Quote:
It is you who are in a quandry by your question. When you are more interested in snaring someone, it is not uncommon to overlook such obvious things.
Obvious I agree. But you don`t see the obvious so I spelled it out for you once again. But I still don`t expect an answer. It`s ok. I know why you won`t answer it. Nothing else needs to be said.
I see from some other posts here you understand these are two plurals in the original, "ages of the ages. The King James Translators basically left the doctrine of the eons in their version. 1.) It says "... the mystery which hath been hid from ages..." (Col 1:26, AV) This plural indicates a minimum of two ages in the past. 2.) A little difficult to get a direct satement in English that we are now in "the present age" with it being so often translated "world." Like, "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage[COLOR=red ! important][/color]..." (Lk 20:34, AV) though Jesus speaking in context here deals with the resurrection which is of the age to come. It's again, "...In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..." (2 Co 4:3, AV) "World" is eon, singular, an age of time in the Greek. 3.) Then, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:7, AV) Here the plural indicates at least two ages in the future. So with two past, + one present + two in the future, we have = a minimum total of five eons indicated. (2 + 1 + 2 = 5) Some have suggessted there are actually eight (8) ages referred to in Scripture, but here is the basic information. When Revelation speaks of, "...God, Who is living for the eons of the eons..." it is referring to the last two (2) eons. The Millennial Age, or Age of Tabernacles is the age or eon to come and it is an outcome of this present age. The last eon is the culminating outcome of all the ages! These are the last two (2) ages or eons. After that we continue with God after the purpose of the eons (Eph 1:9-11) will have been accomplished.
Listen to how Alexander Thompson of Edinburgh, Scotland expressed it: "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement “from everlasting to everlasting thou art God” (Psa.90:2) is literally “from age to age thou art God.” This does not limit God’s existence to the eons any more than the statement, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also. The same is true of the reference to Him as “the eonian God” (Rom.16:25,26)."
[SIZE=+1]FACTS REVEALED CONCERNING THE EONS[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING[/SIZE]
Literal Translation King James Heb.1:2 God made the eons God made the worlds 1Cor.2:7 before the eons before the world 2 Tim.1:9 before times eonian before the world began
[SIZE=-1]THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY[/SIZE] Heb.9:26 the end of the eons the end of the world 1Cor.10:11 the end of the eons the ends of the world Matt.24:3 the end of the eon the end of the world
[SIZE=-1]HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?[/SIZE] Col.1:26 hid from the eons Past hid from ages Luke 20:34 this eon Present this world Eph.2:7 eons to come Future ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated [SIZE=-1]THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS[/SIZE] Eph.3:8-11
Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11
Col.1:15-21 purpose of the eons eternal purpose
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever." (King James Version)
"...and one of the four living creatures did give to the seven messengers seven golden vials, full of the wrath of God, who is living to the ages of the ages..." (Young's Literal Translation)
"And one of the four animals gives to the seven messengers seven golden bowls brimming with the fury of God, Who is living for the eons of the eons. (Amen!)" (Concordant Literal Translation)
If I was the sheriff and a kid, whose folks I knew and respected, was caughtdoing a crime that, while it was wrong, didn't really hurt anyone, rather than ripping apart his life for several years, I might dismiss it after talking to him at length and making him understand what he was messing around with. I might say to him that in a sense he didn't get entirely get away with it because if I ever catch him again it will not go well with him. "...because, ya' know, I'm gonna be the Sheriff tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that." That doesn't mean I'll be the Sheriff for ever, or that I cease to exist once my days of being Sheriff are past.
I see from some other posts here you understand these are two plurals in the original, "ages of the ages. (The following is taken from the key at the bottom of this post.) The King James Translators basically left the doctrine of the eons in their version. 1.) It says "... the mystery which hath been hid from ages..." (Col 1:26, AV) This plural indicates a minimum of two ages in the past. 2.) A little difficult to get a direct satement in English that we are now in "the present age" with it being so often translated "world." Like, "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage..." (Lk 20:34, AV) though Jesus speaking in context here deals with the resurrection which is of the age to come. It's again, "...In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..." (2 Co 4:3, AV) "World" is eon, singular, an age of time in the Greek. 3.) Then, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:7, AV) Here the plural indicates at least two ages in the future. So with two past, + one present + two in the future, we have = a minimum total of five eons indicated. (2 + 1 + 2 = 5) Some have suggessted there are actually eight (8) ages referred to in Scripture, but here is the basic information. When Revelation speaks of, "...God, Who is living for the eons of the eons..." it is referring to the last two (2) eons. The Millennial Age, or Age of Tabernacles is the age or eon to come and it is an outcome of this present age. The last eon is the culminating outcome of all the ages! These are the last two (2) ages or eons. After that we continue with God after the purpose of the eons (Eph 1:9-11) will have been accomplished.
Listen to how Alexander Thompson of Edinburgh, Scotland expressed it: "The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement “from everlasting to everlasting thou art God” (Psa.90:2) is literally “from age to age thou art God.” This does not limit God’s existence to the eons any more than the statement, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob” (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also. The same is true of the reference to Him as “the eonian God” (Rom.16:25,26)."
The eons have a beginning:
Heb 1:2 God made the eons; 1 Cor 2:7 before the eons; 2 Tim 1:9 before eonian times
They all end, individually and collectively:
Heb 9:26 end of the eons; 1 Co 10:11 ends of the eons; Mt 24:3 end of the eon
How many are there?
Col 1:26 hid from the eons (Past); Lk 20:34 this eon (Present); Eph 2:7 eons to come (Future)
The purpose of the eons
Eph 3:8-11, 1:9-11; Phil 2:9-11: Col 1:15-21; 1 Co 15:20-28
Rev 21:27 reiterates the only ones allowed into new jerusalem are those whose name is found in the Lamb's book of life. All others were cast into the lake of fire according to Rev 20:14, which was and is the last word we have on the lake of fire.
Rev 20:11-14 seems to give the chronology like this:
John sees the great white throne (20:11)
The dead were before the GWT and books were opened, including the book of life. The dead are judged according to those books (20:12)
The dead from the sea, death and Hades are given up and are judged (20:13)
"Then" Death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire (20:14)
Anyone's name not in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire (20:15)
"Then" John saw new heaven and new earth, and the holy city, new Jerusalem (21:1-2)
It reads that the thousand years ends, and judgment begins. Once judgement has at least begun, new Jerusalem is available for those who are found in the book of life. Since it is very specific about the names found in the book of life, and those not found in the book of life, it seems the only reasonable answer is that it is after, since the books are not opened until the time at the GWT.
The problem with giving an explanation with a chapter and verse tag is that often the actual words of the verse referrenced does not say what the attached explanation says. This is the problem with the part I bolded above. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:15) Referrenced under your point 5, and at the beginning of your post you indicate, as you say, "All others were cast into the lake of fire." The verse says, "'Whosoever' was not found written..." That "whosoever" was never followed up on. 73 out of 79 times the KJV translates this "whosoever" with "if." Only two times does it use "whosoever." I shared at length about this recently. Was it on this thread? Thayer's says it literally means, "if,whether." "And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." This "if" is never answered: one million? one? none? some? It is silent if, whether any at all were ever found. You have to add that. This is why I earlier answered your assertion by stating repeatedly IT IS NO WRITTEN!!! (But people cannot hear.)
I find it interesting you use "hades'" in point 3 and 4. King James has, "death and hell." I hope you remember that when you consider that there is nothing in the translations or the original languages that state hades is geehena, or tartarus is hades. It is the translators who have unlawfully pasted "hell" over these various words that the Holy Spirit chose to make His revelation know to us. I try to not dismiss singulars or plurals thinking the Lord just made a slip of the pen. And words spelled differently not meaning the same should be respected for what they are. The lake of fire is never called "hell" by the translators!
One last matter, it says "outside are dogs" concerning the New Jerusalem (which we are.) You seem to think that nothing else exists outside of the lake of fire. Maybe I misunderstand you; but, there's more than the celestial Jerusalem at that time.
I will try to answer your question and get back on topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Towhee
If you are correct in your beliefs, and we are wrong, how will it effect us in the long run?
If I am correct (that god saves All), then you will be guilty of impugning the character of God and diminishing His love. You will suffer the consequences in this life and the next age. You may have to endure some time in the Lake of Fire - that will be up to God to judge.
Quote:
If we are correct and you are wrong...then what?
I will still be saved as I believe Jesus is my savior who died for my sins. However if eternal torment is true, then I cannot understand how God will reconcile all things and wipe away every tear, but I guess I must trust God to do what He says.
I will try to answer your question and get back on topic.
If I am correct (that god saves All), then you will be guilty of impugning the character of God and diminishing His love. You will suffer the consequences in this life and the next age. You may have to endure some time in the Lake of Fire - that will be up to God to judge.
I will still be saved as I believe Jesus is my savior who died for my sins. However if eternal torment is true, then I cannot understand how God will reconcile all things and wipe away every tear, but I guess I must trust God to do what He says.[/quote]
How can we be "quilty of impugning the character of God" when the scriptures speak over and over and over the end of those who disobey Him???
Now you've got it...in the bolded statement! As for the " wiping away every (all) tears" , that is speaking of all who have attained a place with Him.
"I must trust God to do what He says." Now you've got it...in the bolded statement! As for the " wiping away every (all) tears" , that is speaking of all who have attained a place with Him.
Agreed, we must trust God to work it out. I trust Him to complete His plan of saving all people.
Titus 2:11 [CEV] God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people.
That is a remarkable scripture. Did you know it was in your bible?
Quote:
How can we be "quilty of impugning the character of God" when the scriptures speak over and over and over the end of those who disobey Him???
What do the scriptures say this "end of those who disobey Him" is? You mean scriptures like this one?:
Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
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