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God takes no pleasure in those who are cast into the lake of fire. If God really intended to save all with or without any response/acceptance to him, then why would he pleasure to make a fallen man live a torturous life before finally "rescuing" him? That would truly be torturous.
"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rv 4:11) There is suffering here and most cannot understand it. Much comes because we reap what we sow and are not repentant. But all that discussion pales in the face the ceaseless torture forever of countless sentient creatures, a wicked dogma not in the Bible, but handed down by a religous system that condoned torture and murder, burning at the stake saints whose crime was to possess even part of the Bible in English. We accepted what these treacherous religionists handed down, gullible people who didn't bother to check the facts about what is actually written or not in the Bible.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
God has all creation and anything he might desire that is not already created he could create. He created a people that he designed with the freedom to accept or reject him. Because of Adam's sin we have the knowledge of good and evil. Because God uses this knowledge and offers a blessing/curse; reward/discipline system you choose to cry "foul!" Yet, hasn't he made it available to anyone? No one has to miss the blessing. But you focus on those that might miss and it makes you angry; you think God must have made a giant mistake...or "that can't be true", so to you it isn't.
Even God doesn't advocate anyone choose this path. He would that no one would perish, but have everlasting life. He was even willing to endure the cross so that those that might believe would have everlasting life. Neither do I advocate anyone choose this path. God grieves; the Holy Spirit grieves; I grieve. You don't grieve, because you don't believe God allows this.
So, God is neither intelligent enough or powerful enough to prevent Himself from being overcome by the devil and wicked men. He really didn't want ceaseless torture for ever but, (I'm supposed to believe this?) they chose it. What you're saying rejects God's clear word that I quoted above. "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rv 4:11)
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
One of my sons was notorious to always blame me for his troubles. Of course, he broke the rules we had set up long in advance, but he thought it was my fault because "I caught him". He didn't want to be held accountable. maybe that is what concerns many USers, deep down perhaps. So blame gets pitched and he who makes the rules is deemed "evil".
I absolutely uphold God as Judge of all. Jesu, Paul, Jeremiah, at least five great men of God say, "God will judge every man according to their deeds."
We are accountable for what we have or have not done. But nowhere in God's law is a payment of infinite apples call a just recompense for stealing one apple.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Do you really fear me? look at my words; listen to my heart. "out of the mouth cometh forth things of the heart." You know I am no threat to you, even if we disagree.
No, I've known Christian people anointed and used of God in responsible positions over othe Christians who did evil of various sorts repeatedly over many years. I trust no man. I am to love even my enemies, but I am told by the prophet to not trust my friends, not even trust her that lieth in my bosom.
Micah 7:2-6 (AV)...
2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.
4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." (Ja 1:22, AV)
"Be ye therefore followers (imitators) of God, as dear children..." (Ep 5:1)
I found we become like our God whether we intend to or not. There is no love of Christ constraining people who cannot judge that if one died for all, then all were dead. Without this love of God there is no way to get beyond the a partial, born of concubinage, stuck in Adam stage. For years, believing what the people around me said, I never knew how the evil spirits of fear, indifference, condemnation, wrath and malice have a stronghold in those believing in ceaseless torture for ever. The truth is Jesus "ascended to fill all things with Himself." Either crucified or as a quickening Spirit, He is in everybody.
Without seeing the unalterable death of Christ is absolute judgement upon all in Adam or Adam's world, even what God had blessed there, you neither know Christ or humankind in any depth. Either crucified or as a quickening Spirit, Christ ascended to fill all with himself. The foundation has been laid in history. It is the foundation of the new creation, the new heavens and the new earth. It is the person of Christ Jesus Himself, dead, buried, risen and ascended as Lord of All and we as, "...members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Ep 5)
knowing they will go to hell, yes/no.
He is omniscient so he knows, but he is merciful and has endured the cross that all who believe might be saved. Knowing and sending are two very different things. If he makes you endure pain and suffering and death though he could have excluded them in your life, wouldn't he already be cruel whether he saved you for the rest of eternity or not?
If you knew if you had a child that child would be born with a terrible disease. A disease that would cause it to suffer unbearable pain all the days of it`s life. Pain that would never ease. The child would suffer night and day and never ever experience joy only excruciating pain every second of it`s existence. The child would cry out in agony endlessly every second of it`s life. Would you still choose to have that child?
Yes! And according to much of the US rhetoric, that would make God cruel and sadistic, even if it isn't eternally cruel.
Revelation 20:10-15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Can't any of you look directly at what you quote? The bolded part above is about the devil, the beast and the false prophet. None of which is necessarily a human being. For now my understanding is the beast is the animal impulses of the flesh (mind.) The false prophet is the religious impulses of the flesh (mind.) And the devil is the adversarial spirit that animates the flesh (mind.) These 3 entities that operate through the carnal man and the 2 things, death and hell (hades, the state resulting from death) are all that is ever directly stated to be in the lake of fire.
Also the bolded part say of the false prophet, the beast and the devil that they are tormented "day and night." "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." (2 Pt 3:10, AV) So this can't be for ever that "day and night" continue. Even torment (which is psychological, not "torture" which is physical) day and night may occur once at noon and once at midnight. That would fulfill this word. Why go beyond it. If God meant "ceaselessly" He surely could've said it. You need to learn not togo beyond what is written. God gave some over to Satan to learn just that very thing. At any rate, people aren't in view here.
Also, the KJV translator smade a distinction between "for ever" and the redundant "for ever and ever" in order to distinguish the difference between "for the eon" (for ever) and, two plurals, "for the eons of the eons" (for ever and ever.) The 2 plurals indicate the last 2 eons.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
Death is abolished for all in heaven, new jerusalem. There is also the second death for some, which is the lake of fire.
God didn't limit it like you're saying or you could quote a verse where it is stated there is such a dichotomy in His world and His word. You take something He said then add your 2 cents worth to make it mean something that for some reason God forgot to add, so you'll do it for Him. It's not about what God really means, it is what He really says or does not say. He is bringing all things into one and re-heading them with Christ. "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him..." (Ep 1:9-10, AV)
Then, as has been repeatedly pointed out, whether the first or ten thousandth death, God will abolish death. Why think then He would perpetuate the worst form of death we are aware of, the second death? Not all are part of the New Jerusalem. Outside are dogs, for instance. But with God, which is increasinly the nature of reality, with God things have a way of changing. Yesterdays dog is today,s little lalmb. If you don't know that, you probably haven't been born again.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
The term aiōn that is used by US as to mean anything but eternal (age-during, age of ages) is the same word used to describe God in Rev 15:7. Claiming this means anything short of eternal is to say God is short of eternal.
Revelation 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever
God is the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob. Does this mean He is not the Gd of anybody else? He is God of the ages, or eons. Jesus Priesthood is base on an indiminishable life. When the ages have achieved their goal, God will still be and we with Him. Jesus says what the "eonian life," that is, the extent of the manifestation of the life pertaining to this eon. "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (Jn 17:3, AV)
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
This quote applies to those in new Jerusalem, not those in the lake of fire.
Again, no Bible to back it up. Your added words, not something quoted chapter and verse. God never limited His statement of "no more death" or "no more pain" (Rv 21:4) to only certain parts of His creation.
1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (AV)...
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
All in all! Not all in some!!
Last edited by JamesMRohde; 06-27-2009 at 01:17 AM..
Yes! And according to much of the US rhetoric, that would make God cruel and sadistic, even if it isn't eternally cruel.
Revelation 20:10-15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Just1man,
A few things I have noticed is that when the dead are judged it does not say anything about being raised at that time - whosoever name is not written in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire which is the "second death" From what I understand being resurrected is being raised from the dead - being raised would happen after the second death
The very next verses explains what happens next
Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
What are they reigning over forever and ever? What nations are being healed?
I believe that this corresponds with the end that is mentioned in 1 Cor 15:22-28
In Corinthians we are told that Jesus only reigns until he was brought everything under his feet, then he hands the kingdom over to his Father and is subject to his Father,so God is all in all.
Death is abolished for all in heaven, new jerusalem. There is also the second death for some, which is the lake of fire.
The term aiōn that is used by US as to mean anything but eternal (age-during, age of ages) is the same word used to describe God in Rev 15:7. Claiming this means anything short of eternal is to say God is short of eternal.
God being the God of the ages does not limit him to only being the God of the ages, When the ages end he obviously does not cease to exist - he created the ages and he is outside of the ages - the ages are what he has set in place to bring everything together in Christ In Corinthians we are told that first is natural/corruptible - then the spiritual/incorruptible
If you are correct in your beliefs, and we are wrong, how will it effect us in the long run?
If we are correct and you are wrong...then what?
- you'll be ashamed for telling lies about God, you might be called liers and receive a harsh judgment, maybe a very harsh due the lack of mercy, but eventually you'll be saved.
- we might suffer endless torture as estimated 90% of all men that ever lived, the question then would be why? - only because we missunderstood the bible?
what if annihilationism is true? the teaching of hell turns many away from Christianity, then you might be annhilated for you false teaching (some annihilationists believe that), maybe we alike would be annihilated.
what if hyper Calvinism is true, we won't change nothing at all, no matter what we teach
The term aiōn that is used by US as to mean anything but eternal (age-during, age of ages) is the same word used to describe God in Rev 15:7. Claiming this means anything short of eternal is to say God is short of eternal.
The bolded part is imo a fallacy.
You are (potentially at least) creating a false dilemma by assuming only two options to choose from:
(A) aionion implies infinite duration
(B) aionion implies finite duration
Supposes aionion does not designate a specific duration at all. Then what? For example, the word "indefinitely" in English is about time yet does not designate a specific duration. I'm not saying aionion means "indefinitely" I'm just giving an example where a time-word does not fit nicely into the either/or dilema you have set up.
Here is a definition of aionion given by someone arguing against UR. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm giving another example of a definition that does not fall neatly into (A) or (B). The quoted section is trying to reconcile ET with "His mercy endures forever."
(2) His mercy endureth forever; and is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever.
Yes, those gracious expressions mean much of joy and comfort; but, in the original, the word of which our English word forever is a translation does not mean exactly the same as forever or without an end. It means, rather, continuously as long as proper or necessary, until a proper end has been reached. To illustrate: In Lev. 16:34we read, "This shall be an everlasting (Hebrew, olam) statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins, once a year." And in verse 29we read, "And this shall be a statute FOREVER unto you: That in the seventh month and tenth day of the month ye shall...do no work at all." (Compare Exod. 21:6.) How long did "forever" or "everlasting" mean in those cases? Are those statutes still in force? No. When did that "forever" and that "everlasting" cease? At the cross. These, with all the other features of the Mosaic Law, ceased [R1454 : page 297] when Christ made an end of the Law, nailing it to his cross.
Just so in the texts quoted by Objector. God's mercy toward human sinners will endure until Christ makes an end of it in the close of the Millennial age. Mercy by that time will have exhausted every legitimate means for showing to sinners the path of life. More than that could not be called mercy. When all will have been done that can be done for sinners (and God's promises concerning the great work of Christ for the world during the Millennium are nothing short of this), then, the true, proper end of the mercy having come, divine Love and Justice will step forward and declare that those who have rejected this fulness of mercy shall be "cut off [not from their sins, but] from among the people."--Acts 3:23.
Since you believe that aionion and owlam must imply either infinite or finite duration, can you come up with a duration definition for owlam that works in each of these passages?
Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the owlam God.
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. 4 And they shall build the owlam wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
Isaiah 58:11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the owlam waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
If you knew if you had a child that child would be born with a terrible disease. A disease that would cause it to suffer unbearable pain all the days of it`s life. Pain that would never ease. The child would suffer night and day and never ever experience joy only excruciating pain every second of it`s existence. The child would cry out in agony endlessly every second of it`s life. Would you still choose to have that child?
I couldn't tell you. But I can tell you it is nothing like what God has designed. To the extent that sin is a disease that could cause endless agony, God has provided a cure. His cure is for everyone, though not everyone accepts it.
If you knew you were to have that child in your analogy, but you also knew there was are sure cure, though there would be pain and suffering for a time, but everlasting peace for the rest of eternity, would you still choose NOT to have that child?
"Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rv 4:11) There is suffering here and most cannot understand it. Much comes because we reap what we sow and are not repentant. But all that discussion pales in the face the ceaseless torture forever of countless sentient creatures, a wicked dogma not in the Bible, but handed down by a religous system that condoned torture and murder, burning at the stake saints whose crime was to possess even part of the Bible in English. We accepted what these treacherous religionists handed down, gullible people who didn't bother to check the facts about what is actually written or not in the Bible.
There is suffering in the lake of fire for those whose name is not found in the book of life, but most cannot understand it either.
If you think the RCC has somehow single-handedly contorted all of Christianity then you have given them more power than even they ever hoped for. As a matter of fact, with that kind of power and apparent success, how could you possibly rely on anything else for authoritative, reliable support, for they too would have been corrupt.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
So, God is neither intelligent enough or powerful enough to prevent Himself from being overcome by the devil and wicked men. He really didn't want ceaseless torture for ever but, (I'm supposed to believe this?) they chose it. What you're saying rejects God's clear word that I quoted above. "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rv 4:11)
Why is it that if he chooses a system of redemption by faith, as apposed to redeption by design, you chant "God must be lacking!" You have nothing to base that conclusion upon, but predetermined speculation and man's "common sense". These are not only unreliable but grossly inadequate tools with which to judge God as you do.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
I absolutely uphold God as Judge of all. Jesu, Paul, Jeremiah, at least five great men of God say, "God will judge every man according to their deeds."
We are accountable for what we have or have not done. But nowhere in God's law is a payment of infinite apples call a just recompense for stealing one apple.
No, but there are plenty of serious examples you should be attacking at the same time, which you are not.
If your eye sins, gouge it out.
If your child is rebellious he should be stoned to death.
For looking back, Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt.
Jesus said if you even look upon a woman with lust you have committed adultery
This could go on for quite some time...These sound like very sadistic, harsh punishments for such minor infractions. US never considers God's love less than perfect in regard to these kinds of consequences. It would seem "anything goes...as long as it is not forever" = "God is Love", is hypocritical, presumptive and erroneous. Unless you are stealing the apple, you have nothing to worry about. And if you are stealing the apple, humble yourself and seek his forgiveness (it is free for all) while there is yet time.
Why? Because US wants to infere a single word as "age-during" or "ages of ages" and reject the idea it refers to eternity. Try applying that translation in Revelation 15:7 when it refers to how long God lives.
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Originally Posted by JamesMRohde
No, I've known Christian people anointed and used of God in responsible positions over othe Christians who did evil of various sorts repeatedly over many years. I trust no man. I am to love even my enemies, but I am told by the prophet to not trust my friends, not even trust her that lieth in my bosom.
I have too, but I have also known Christian people who did not do evil. Without trust, there can be no love. 1Cor 13:7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
I like what Ronald Reagan said years ago about the Russians. He was talking about the necessity of inspections even though the Russians were now our 'friends'. He said, "trust, but verify".
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