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I didn`t say it was possible or impossible, it was just a hypothetical question...geeze. But, your refusal to answer speaks loud enough. I have your answer. I rest my case.
By virtue of it being a "question", if it is an impossibility it might not have an answer. If you want to draw out someone's thoughts or bent you have to give them something comprehendable. That loud sound you hear is actually my inability to give a coherent answer to an incoherent question.
How about this: Ask me a question I can't comprehend and see if my answer makes sense!
You clearly wanted to put me in a situation where I either chose death (or lack of existence) or absolutely certain torture absolutely for ever. There is no meaningful answer. If I say death ( don't bring into the world) I end a life to save it pain, like a lame horse. The alternative is not what God has done so electing that answer would be meaningless for the point as well. You say "not opting to bring into the world" is not death (in the hypothetical, I think). What life could we possibly be talking about then??
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying man does not need to be disciplined for our wrongs. But to suggest that we need endless punishment for our sins is ridiculous. And no, I do not worry about my "accusations" against God, for they are not against God, but a perverted image of the true Heavenly Father. God loves mankind. He loves them more than I do, more than any human ever has, and to suggest that he could torture any human being forever is completely heartless. I couldn't do it. And God certainly couldn't. I could discipline. And God certainly will, conforming each human being unto the likeness of his Son.
God bless!
Does not man discipline? Of course, but his is not perfect. Does not God discipline? Of course, but his is perfect, even if he determines it to be eternal.
No one is suggesting we need endless punishment. On the contrary, many are suggesting we aren't that bad to warrant such consequences. Even if we reject God for a lifetime, that sin is not so bad...because we (the guilty) don't think we could EVER deserve that.
Romans 9:13-18 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Romans 9: 20-24 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
Actually, it's a really easy question to answer, and the reason it is hypothetical: is because of course it's not to be taken as positively possible.
Would you have a child if you knew your child would suffer in extreme agonizing pain for every second of its life?
There. In this hypothetical situation, you KNOW what will befall your child if you choose to have a child. Now: would you choose to have this child?
As it has been said already, there are too many living, breathing, happy examples of children born to certain "suffering in extreme agonizing pain for every second". At least the doctors thought so. What makes us think we can ever know for certain before the life is lived? You talk to any parent that has a child suffering at some point after birth.(they could be severl years old before something happens.)
What parent ever says, "well doc, you know I love my child very much. But, ok, let's let things run their course so that he doesn't have to suffer anymore. Besides, you said there is no chance, or was it 1 in a million, oh whatever. I know it sounded pretty impossible." Instead, we cling to every possible hope!
It is positively impossible that God would know you and I are going to suffer forever without any possible salvation. This only becomes possible if you remove the possibility of salvation.
What if ... What if ... well one group will find out they were wrong and will have to admit it. It will out come out in the wash.
What if the catholics are right and the only true church is the catholic church? What if the Mormons are right? or Jehovah's witnesses? Or what if the satanists are right for that matter?
If i made decisions based on fears of "what ifs" and not on rational deduction and guidance from my own conscience as it is inspired by God ... I would be easily swayed to believe any charlatan willing to extort lack of understanding. I would be persuaded of superstitions.
Thank You!
Likewise, if I made my decisions without understanding the likely consequences of my choices and actions, I would not be using the same abilities God has given me.
As it has been said already, there are too many living, breathing, happy examples of children born to certain "suffering in extreme agonizing pain for every second". At least the doctors thought so. What makes us think we can ever know for certain before the life is lived? You talk to any parent that has a child suffering at some point after birth.(they could be severl years old before something happens.)
What parent ever says, "well doc, you know I love my child very much. But, ok, let's let things run their course so that he doesn't have to suffer anymore. Besides, you said there is no chance, or was it 1 in a million, oh whatever. I know it sounded pretty impossible." Instead, we cling to every possible hope!
It is positively impossible that God would know you and I are going to suffer forever without any possible salvation. This only becomes possible if you remove the possibility of salvation.
Well, sir, I do not feel you adequately answered my question, but I will not ask you again.
Does not man discipline? Of course, but his is not perfect. Does not God discipline? Of course, but his is perfect, even if he determines it to be eternal.
No one is suggesting we need endless punishment. On the contrary, many are suggesting we aren't that bad to warrant such consequences. Even if we reject God for a lifetime, that sin is not so bad...because we (the guilty) don't think we could EVER deserve that.
Romans 9:13-18 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Romans 9: 20-24 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
Discipline is for corrective purposes, with the end desire to be a corrected being. Eternal discipline would never achieve this end result. If it does not achieve its result it no longer remains disciplinary, but something whole different. It turns into something more along the lines of senseless torment.
As far as the scriptures you quoted: certainly, I believe it's very probably, if not certain, that God has prepared vessels of "wrath," but God's endgame is to show kindness and mercy to ALL of mankind.
Romans 11:32 (Concordant Literal Version):
32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
Romans 11:32 (Young's Literal Translation):
32for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.
Romans 11:32 (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible):
32For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy.
Romans 11:32 (New International Version):
32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
So whether you're a vessel of mercy or a vessel of wrath, you will, in the end, be shown God's mercy and kindness.
How about this: Ask me a question I can't comprehend and see if my answer makes sense!
what?
Quote:
If I say death ( don't bring into the world) I end a life to save it pain, like a lame horse.
Who said anything about ending a life?
You are trying way too hard here just. It`s a simple qiestion. Stop trying to be so analytical. Obviously you are stuck in a quandry because you are faced with a question that causes you to think and puts you at odds with your belief. It`s ok.
Quote:
The alternative is not what God has done so electing that answer would be meaningless for the point as well. You say "not opting to bring into the world" is not death (in the hypothetical, I think). What life could we possibly be talking about then??
Once again you are making more out of the question because you don`t know how to answer without being hypocritical in your beliefs. So, you just simply make up a bunch of lame excuses as to why you can`t answer it.
If you think the RCC has somehow single-handedly contorted all of Christianity then you have given them more power than even they ever hoped for. As a matter of fact, with that kind of power and apparent success, how could you possibly rely on anything else for authoritative, reliable support, for they too would have been corrupt.
Martin Luther was a distinguished law student who become an Augustinian monk and yearned for peace with God. He found it in studying the book of Romans. He received his doctorate in theology at age 28 and as a professor at the University of Wittenberg, he dealt with many primary issues:
1. AUTHORITY – the Bible alone is our authority and not the councils or leaders of the church. Bible above tradition.
2. SALVATION – is by the grace of God alone, accomplished by the atonement of Christ alone, received by faith alone. Grace before Sacraments.
3. THE CHURCH – the true Church is composed of the elect, those regenerated by God’s Holy Spirit. Regenerate Church membership.
4. THE PRIESTHOOD – consists of all true believers. Priesthood of all believers.
The Protestant Reformation mobilised by Luther rallied around these battle cries:
+ Sola Christus – Christ alone is the head of the Church.
+ Sola Scriptura – Scripture alone is our authority.
+ Sola Gratia – Salvation is by the Grace of God alone.
+ Sola Fide – Justification is received by faith alone.
It was Martin Luther’s earnest quest for peace with God, and his intensive study of the Scriptures, which led him to challenge the unethical fund-raising tactics of the papacy and launch the Protestant Reformation. Luther’s love for the Word of God and his dedication to truth led him to challenge the entire ecclesiastical and political authority of the Roman Catholic church and the Holy Roman Empire.
April 18, 1521 – Luther stood firm before the Emperor, 6 Electors (Princes), 24 dukes, 30 archbishops and bishops and 7 ambassadors. His speech shook the world:
“Unless I am convinced by Scripture, or by clear reasoning, that I am in error – for popes and councils have often erred and contradicted themselves – I cannot recant, for I am subject to the Scriptures I have quoted; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. It is unsafe and dangerous to do anything against one’s conscience. Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise. So help me God. Amen.”
From this point for the rest of his life, Luther was an outlaw with a price on his head. He was protected in Saxony by Prince Frederick, but he was under sentence of death elsewhere.
In this incredibly courageous stand against the assembled political and religious might of Europe, Luther argued for freedom of conscience based upon the authority of Scripture. Until that time the prevailing practice was authoritarianism, both in church and state. All religions and cultures supported a monarchy, aristocracy and authoritarianism. However Martin Luther and the Reformers maintained that, because of the depravity of man, no human authority could be trusted as absolute. He rejected ecclesiastical totalitarianism and championed the principle of Sola Scriptura – the Bible alone is our ultimate authority.
By translating the Bible from the original Greek and Hebrew into the common tongue, and making it widely available to both nobles and peasants, Luther championed universal education and literacy, the Priesthood of all Believers, freedom of conscience and religious liberty.
The Protestant doctrine of the Priesthood of all Believers became the foundation for modern representative republics. The equality of all men before God and the Law underlined the absolutism of monarchs and popes who set themselves above the Law.
Instead of the prevailing “Rex Lex” (the king is the law),the Reformers championed “Lex Rex” (the Law is king!) No one is above God’s Law. Jesus Christ is the King of kings and the Lord of lords. Everyone is under God’s Law. Sola Scriptura eroded the foundations of ecclesiastical and political totalitarianism. The Protestant emphasis on the Priesthood of all Believers and the supreme authority of Scripture led to the concept of representative government and constitutional authority as the supreme law of the land.
By emphasising the Biblical doctrine of Faith as a gift of God, Luther undermined the Catholic Inquisition and provided the theological foundations for religious liberty and freedom of conscience.
The social implications of this religious Reformation were enormous. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura led to constitutionalism. The Priesthood of all Believers led to the concept of representative republics and democratic forms of government. Religious liberty and freedom of conscience led to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association and all the other out-workings of political and social freedom.
Ideas have consequences. There is no doubt that the Reformation in Europe during the 16th Century has to be seen as one of the most important epochs in the history of the world. The Reformation gave us the Bible – now freely available in our own languages. Few people today realise that the first Bibles printed into English had to be printed in Germany and smuggled into England in bales of cotton from Holland. And that the first Bible translator, William Tyndale, was burned at the stake for the crime of translating the Bible into English. Seven mothers and fathers were burned alive at Coventry for teaching their own children The Ten Commandments, the Lord’s Prayer, and the Apostles Creed - in English.
The sacrifices made by the Reformers and the far-reaching impact of their courageous application of the Word of God to every area of life, needs to be rediscovered. The Christian Church has made more positive changes on earth than any other force or movement in History.
Most of the languages of the world were first codified and put into writing by Christian missionaries. More schools and universities have been started by Christians than any other religion, nation or group. Christian Reformers and missionaries have succeeded in bringing about the abolition of slavery, cannibalism, child sacrifice and widow burning. Those countries which enjoy the most civil liberties, are those lands where the Gospel of Christ has penetrated the most.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is life-changing, history making and nation transforming. If it doesn’t change your life and the lives of those around you, then it’s not the Biblical Gospel.
The Reformers emphasised God’s Sovereignty, that Scripture alone is our final authority, that Christ alone is the Head of the Church, and that justification is by God’s Grace alone, on the basis of the finished work of Christ, received by Faith alone. The Reformers’ teaching on the depravity of man, the Covenant and church government have influenced positive political and social developments in liberty throughout the Western world and beyond, establishing checks and balances, the separation of powers and constitutional authority.
All of us are beneficiaries of this tremendous movement for Faith and Freedom. If you love liberty, you need to re-examine the history and principles of the Reformation. Visit www.ReformationSA.org for inspirational character studies and articles on the doctrines and events which God has used to transform whole nations and bring about the greatest spiritual Revivals ever known.
Discipline is for corrective purposes, with the end desire to be a corrected being. Eternal discipline would never achieve this end result. If it does not achieve its result it no longer remains disciplinary, but something whole different. It turns into something more along the lines of senseless torment.
What is man's purpose for "life" prison sentences? Is it discipline, senseless torture, or is it just safer for all us good people if they are kept locked up?
If you knew if you had a child that child would be born with a terrible disease. A disease that would cause it to suffer unbearable pain all the days of it`s life. Pain that would never ease. The child would suffer night and day and never ever experience joy only excruciating pain every second of it`s existence. The child would cry out in agony endlessly every second of it`s life. Would you still choose to have that child?
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
Who said anything about ending a life?
You began by saying I had a child "that would be born with a terrible disease." How else could I choose not to have that child if not by choosing to end/abort the child's life??
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62
Obviously you are stuck in a quandry because you are faced with a question that causes you to think and puts you at odds with your belief.
It is you who are in a quandry by your question. When you are more interested in snaring someone, it is not uncommon to overlook such obvious things.
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. But, your refusal to answer speaks loud enough. I have your answer. I rest my case.
