God loves the sin and hates the sinner? (preacher, prayer, sinned)

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

I always thought of Calvinism as being particularly "prickish".

Many Christians seem to reserve a special place in their hearts for sin, hate, works, and condemnation ...

Let's not beat about the bush it's simply because they have never understood the gospel.

They are more conscious of sin then they are of God , this is rife throughout the christian church.They still think in terms of righteous and unrighteous and just and unjust not knowing that none of us are righteous in ourselves .

They forget it was the goodness of God that led them to repentance and how Longsuffering and patient God as been with them.

Then they burden the flock with teaching they do not walk in theirselves.

No wonder the flock as strayed and no wonder a good many of the flock are walking in condemnation being indoctrinated by a gospel of works and God being a respector of persons, no wonder people are leaving churches in their droves.

What i have been reading on here today confirms all that i ever believed about the organized church system .

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Let's not beat about the bush it's simply because they have never understood the gospel.

They are more conscious of sin then they are of God , this is rife throughout the christian church.They still think in terms of righteous and unrighteous and just and unjust not knowing that none of us are righteous in ourselves .

They forget it was the goodness of God that led them to repentance and how Longsuffering and patient God as been with them.

Then they burden the flock with teaching they do not walk in theirselves.

No wonder the flock as strayed and no wonder a good many of the flock are walking in condemnation being indoctrinated by a gospel of works and God being a respector of persons, no wonder people are leaving churches in their droves.

What i have been reading on here today confirms all that i ever believed about the organized church system .

Indubitably

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Let's not beat about the bush it's simply because they have never understood the gospel..

Well, I was going to stay out of this thread until, this dumb statement was made. So, are you telling us you understand the complete message yourself? That Jesus HIMSELF has revealed the deeper mysteries concerning the coming Kingdom, and what your role is now, and in the coming age?

They are more conscious of sin then they are of God , this is rife throughout the christian church.

You know why some of us Christians are more aware of sin than ever before? Because some of us know the price that was paid for redemption. You spout off this nonsense about the "fleshly man" that will always sin, and the "spiritual man" that cannot sin, and I am here to tell you that is but a load of garbage. For whatever is in your heart to do, that is what you will do. Either the spiritual things, or the fleshly things. Remember, in Paul's sermon letter to the Romans, in the battle between the flesh and the spirit in chapter 7,,,it becomes CLEAR in Romans 8 who won that war. IF, IF, IF the Spirit of Christ is IN you, you CANNOT sin, period. There is no cutting through, as that division is completed. That is the difference between the "godly" and the "ungodly", the bearing of fruits, and on and on.

They still think in terms of righteous and unrighteous and just and unjust not knowing that none of us are righteous in ourselves .

Nor can we be. We need the help of the Comforter, to deal with sin, and the separation that it causes. That is the walk. Overcoming sin, the flesh, whatever you want to call it. Labeling ourselves as righteous is about as good as labeling ourselves as Christian. You will KNOW them by their fruits. PERIOD.

They forget it was the goodness of God that led them to repentance and how Longsuffering and patient God as been with them.

Let's not, nor even try. For this reason, we pick up our crosses and die daily,,,to this flesh.

Then they burden the flock with teaching they do not walk in theirselves.

Agreed, there is a ton of that, but our own mirrors is all we should be concerned with, not others.

No wonder the flock as strayed and no wonder a good many of the flock are walking in condemnation being indoctrinated by a gospel of works and God being a respector of persons, no wonder people are leaving churches in their droves.

Maybe they are leaving because they are drawn out of them. Pagan Christianity is dying, as the Spirit moves among the believers.

What i have been reading on here today confirms all that i ever believed about the organized church system .

Good, I got mine about 20 years ago.

[pcamps]

Hotinaz

Never once said i fully understand the whole revelation of God , what i do know is it not a gospel of legal requirements and works to attain salvation.

You said it is nonsense that the fleshy man will always sin and the spiritual man can never sin so this is nonsense

So this nonsense

1 John 3 verse 9 Whosever is born of God does not commit sin.

Galatians 5 ; 19-21

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Talking to believers

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The rest of your comments i seriously cannot be bothered with as i feel you and i have been there to many times before.

[Cyber Munchkin]

To whom it may concern:

Yes, I have copied and pasted much of this post.
I thank the Lord Jesus for using BT to convicted me for my breaking the rules of city-data.
Thank you, BT.....!!
And I ask for all of you involve in this thread and to those whom were just reading the thread and not involved with posting that you will forgive me.
I knew soon as I hit the submit post, what I had done.... and also in my reply to BT with the post below.

I'm so thankful that Jesus does not leave us, nor forsake us in all that we say and do....
And He keeps us on the path of His will and righteous in our lives. And will not allow us to continue in our wrong doing or sin.
Thank you, Lord for Your Holy Spirit who convicts our hearts when we have sinned.

Thank you and blessings to all who will forgive me.

Originally Posted by Latte'Chic

GOD HATES the SIN, BUT LOVES the SINNER - UNTRUE and UNSCRIPTURAL

Lets see what God's attitude and response has been toward such who practice such things.

The Old Testament bible passages......
Psalm 7:11
God is a just judge, And God is ANGRY with the WICKED every day.

JOB 20:26-29
26 Total darkness is reserved for his treasures. An unfanned FIRE will consume him; It shall go ill with him who is left in his tent.
27 The heavens will reveal his iniquity, And the earth will rise up against him.
28 The increase of his house will depart, And his goods will flow away in the day of His WRATH.
29 This is the portion from God for a WICKED man, The heritage appointed to him by God."

Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to WRATH, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who DESTROYED this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.

Ezra 8:22
For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His WRATH are against all those who forsake Him."

Job 21:30
For the WICKED are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of WRATH.

Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the UNGODLY shall PERISH.

Psalm 1:5
Therefore the UNGODLY shall not stand in the judgment, Nor SINNERS in the congregation of the righteous.

Psalm 21:8-10
8 Your hand will find all Your ENEMIES; Your right hand will find those who HATE You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your ANGER; The LORD shall swallow them up in His WRATH, And the FIRE shall DEVOUR them.
10 Their offspring You shall DESTROY from the earth, And their descendants from among the sons of men.

Psalm 90:11
Who knows the power of Your ANGER? For as the fear of You, so is Your WRATH.

Proverbs 11:23
The desire of the righteous is only good, But the expectation of the WICKED is WRATH.

Proverbs 11:30-31
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise.
31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the UNGODLY and the SINNER.

Isaiah 1:28
The destruction of TRANSGRESSORS and of SINNERS shall be together, And those who forsake the LORD shall be CONSUMED.

Isaiah 13:8-10
8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both WRATH and fierce ANGER, To lay the land desolate; And He will DESTROY its SINNERS from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

Jeremiah 10:9-11
9 Silver is beaten into plates; It is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of the craftsman And of the hands of the metalsmith; Blue and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skillful men.
10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His WRATH the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His INDIGNATION.
11 Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall PERISH from the earth and from under these heavens."

Jeremiah 44:1-6
1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews who dwell in the land of Egypt, who dwell at Migdol, at Tahpanhes, at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying,
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "You have seen all the CALAMITY that I have brought on Jerusalem and on all the cities of Judah; and behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,
3 because of their WICKEDNESS which they have committed to provoke Me to ANGER, in that they went to burn incense and to serve other gods whom they did not know, they nor you nor your fathers.
4 However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, "Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I HATE!"
5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their WICKEDNESS, to burn no incense to other gods.
6 So My FURY and My ANGER were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are WASTED and DESOLATE, as it is this day.

Nahum 1:2-3
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take VENGEANCE on His adversaries, And He reserves WRATH for His ENEMIES;
3 The LORD is slow to ANGER and great in power, And will not at all acquit the WICKED....
************************

Now, from the New Testament, God's current attitude and response toward such who practice such things........

Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth AGAINST those who practice such things.
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the JUDGMENT of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself WRATH in the day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will RENDER to each one according to his deeds"
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, on every soul of man who does EVIL, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Ephesians 5
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the WRATH of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Colossians 3
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, EVIL desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the WRATH of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

2 Thessalonians 1
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the UNGODLY and the SINNER appear?"

2 Peter 2:5-7
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the UNGODLY;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live UNGODLY;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the WICKED

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for FIRE until the day of JUDGMENT and perdition (destruction) of UNGODLY men.

Revelation 11:18
The nations were ANGRY, and Your WRATH has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should DESTROY those who DESTROY the earth."

Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE, which is the second DEATH."


We see from the above verses that God says he is angry with the sinner, the ungodly, and the wicked and intends to do something about it.

The point of all this is to reveal how "unsound" teaching and doctrine easily infiltrate the Church. Probably most Christians don't realize how unscriptural the above cliche really is.

The problem with the stated cliche is that it takes Jesus Christ out of the equation when responding and confronting the activities of the wicked. Its true that Jesus said he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world (Jn 3:17). Nevertheless, the unsaved exist and are operating under God's patience and forbearance.

The reason the cliche is wrong is because God's love for the sinner is ONLY made available in His SON, Jesus Christ.

WE truly need to be aware that it is not scriptural and shouldn't use it. God's love is manifested toward sinners by His offering of Jesus Christ to them. We need to do the same.

Some Christians use the cliche because it is non-confrontational and is non-convicting to the sinner. The sinners like it for the very same reasons, plus, they can expect an attitude of love toward their lifestyle without reproach.

But the scripture says:
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them.

We as Christians have an obligation to preach the Gospel to the lost and warn them of their impending doom as was the case of Noah before the flood.
Restoring John 3:16 to its proper place seems to be in order when confronting darkness and avoid worthless sayings....
*****************

After believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, thus entering the Kingdom of God, we (believers) become recipients of God's LOVE:

John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him."

1 John 4:9
In this the LOVE of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might LIVE through Him.

1 John 4:10
In this is LOVE, not that we LOVED God, but that He LOVED us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 Corinthians 16:24
My LOVE be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

Blessings

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Well, I was going to stay out of this thread until, this dumb statement was made. So, are you telling us you understand the complete message yourself? That Jesus HIMSELF has revealed the deeper mysteries concerning the coming Kingdom, and what your role is now, and in the coming age?

This sounds like a personal matter ...

You know why some of us Christians are more aware of sin than ever before? Because some of us know the price that was paid for redemption. You spout off this nonsense about the "fleshly man" that will always sin, and the "spiritual man" that cannot sin, and I am here to tell you that is but a load of garbage. For whatever is in your heart to do, that is what you will do. Either the spiritual things, or the fleshly things. Remember, in Paul's sermon letter to the Romans, in the battle between the flesh and the spirit in chapter 7,,,it becomes CLEAR in Romans 8 who won that war. IF, IF, IF the Spirit of Christ is IN you, you CANNOT sin, period. There is no cutting through, as that division is completed. That is the difference between the "godly" and the "ungodly", the bearing of fruits, and on and on.

Romans 4:5
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."





If its faith that counts as righteousness ...





Galatians 5:5
"For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.





And by faith we wait on the hope of righteousness ...





Jam 5:16
"Confess your faults(paraptōma - a sin, misdeed) one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

(paraptōma means to back slide literally)




Then how on earth can you tell me that Christians CANT sin? How long have you been a Christian? More then 20 years? You haven't been able to sin in over twenty years?

Nor can we be. We need the help of the Comforter, to deal with sin, and the separation that it causes. That is the walk. Overcoming sin, the flesh, whatever you want to call it. Labeling ourselves as righteous is about as good as labeling ourselves as Christian. You will KNOW them by their fruits. PERIOD.

If we CANT sin after we are "truly saved" then what is the comforter helping with? The comforter is here to help us with many things, namely our estrangement from our Lord. As far as sin is concerned the spirit is here to convict us of our sins and to draw us back after we have wandered from the path.

Let's not, nor even try. For this reason, we pick up our crosses and die daily,,,to this flesh.

Indeed, we struggle against the sin which is in the very members of our body daily ... And some battles you win and some you lose. Good thing for us Jesus has already won the war.

Agreed, there is a ton of that, but our own mirrors is all we should be concerned with, not others.

Agreed ... However realistically we are all hypocrites and find fault in those with whom we disagree.

Maybe they are leaving because they are drawn out of them. Pagan Christianity is dying, as the Spirit moves among the believers.

Could be a mix of the two ...

Good, I got mine about 20 years ago.

You gotta get it when the gettins' good !

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Hotinaz

Never once said i fully understand the whole revelation of God , what i do know is it not a gospel of legal requirements and works to attain salvation..

And I never said it was. I actually agree with the last part of this statement.

You said it is nonsense that the fleshy man will always sin and the spiritual man can never sin so this is nonsense

In the context you were using it as before. I know what it means to walk in the flesh, and/or walk in the spirit. I also know the 'requirements' or fulfilling of the Law for both. You said you will always sin. Really?

You said:

Our flesh(old man) as never changed from the day we believed it was wicked before we believed and still is to this day .What is so difficult in understanding this Fundy . Are you not aware of the old man (carnal minded man) and the new man (spiritual minded man).

So you are a 'carnal Christian'?

So this nonsense

No, this is TRUTH!

1 John 3 verse 9 Whosever is born of God does not commit sin.

Galatians 5 ; 19-21

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Talking to believers

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

The rest of your comments i seriously cannot be bothered with as i feel you and i have been there to many times before.

Ok then.

[Harold Kupp]

Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA
It's pretty clear John 3:16 says He loves the whole world and if you wonder if He hates sin........look at the price He paid.........the cross.

Fundamentalist replies:

but where does it say that in the bible, God loves the sinner but hates the sin?

(Psalm 5:4–6)
4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. 5 The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the Lord abhors.

Well, of course it does not say that God loves the sinner - on the contrary it say he hates the sinners.

I think there is something interesting in ILNC's post - John 3:16 reads "God so LOVED the world but ILNC reads "loved" but thinks and says God LOVES the world. There is a huge difference between LOVED - (aorist tense) a single act in the past and LOVES (present tense) continuing in love.

ILNC only changed one small letter - but his interpretation changes the entire meaning of the verse.

The fact that at some point in time God acted with charity towards a
sinful world by giving them a Saviour, does not imply that God loves all
men unconditionally. In fact the scriptures say exactly the opposite.
They say that God does not love wicked mankind and was sorry that
He made them...

"The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil
continually.

And the LORD was SORRY THAT HE HAD MADE MANON
THE EARTH and it grieved Him to His heart" (Gen 6:5-6)

HK

[Harold Kupp]

ILNC writes

Well it's all through out the Bible that God loves us. And yes that is what John 3:16 says " For so LOVED THE WORLD that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life"

ILNC you did it again - you read LOVED but type LOVES.

I challenge you to point out where the Scriptures say God LOVES us all? Let me help you with your homework - every time it says God LOVES (LOVETH) in the present tense is directly connected to the righteous.

"The LORD loveth the righteous." (Psalms 146:8)

"He loveth him that followeth after righteousness." (Proverbs 15:9)

"I love them that love Me." (Proverbs 8:17)

"...For I the LORD your God am a jealous God ...showing
steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and KEEP MY
COMMANDMENTS

HK

[pcamps]

Hotinaz
What is born of the flesh is spirit and what is born of the spirit is flesh of cause not

What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.

flesh will always be flesh , spirit will always be spirit

Absolutely nothing to do with being a carnal christian , if you are in the flesh you will fulfill its lusts just like the scripture i shared from Galatians says.