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So only the elect are dying due to what Adam did in Romans 5:12?
Come on Fundy, it doesn't say "the elect" but "ALL MANKIND" and in the Greek it is "ALL HUMANS" (PANTAS ANTHROPOS).
all of mankind that qualifies. All of the mankind is human and adam was human so we all sin, all of mankind are the elect because only they can be glorified and justified!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
According to Fundy "all mankind" means "all the elect." Let's try this new age belief he has out:
"God is the Saviour of "all the elect", especially "the elect."
or
"God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially the believer."
As usual Universalist never looking at context. John was talking to Jews telling the Jews that salvation is not only for their Jewish little world but for all the world who BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only the elect can believe HELLLLLLOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOD HATES the SIN, BUT LOVES the SINNER - UNTRUE and UNSCRIPTURAL
Lets see what God's attitude and response has been toward such who practice such things.
The Old Testament bible passages...... Psalm 7:11
God is a just judge, And God is ANGRY with the WICKED every day.
JOB 20:26-29
26 Total darkness is reserved for his treasures. An unfanned FIRE will consume him; It shall go ill with him who is left in his tent.
27 The heavens will reveal his iniquity, And the earth will rise up against him.
28 The increase of his house will depart, And his goods will flow away in the day of His WRATH.
29 This is the portion from God for a WICKED man, The heritage appointed to him by God."
Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to WRATH, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who DESTROYED this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
Ezra 8:22
For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His WRATH are against all those who forsake Him."
Job 21:30
For the WICKED are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of WRATH.
Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the UNGODLY shall PERISH.
Psalm 1:5
Therefore the UNGODLY shall not stand in the judgment, Nor SINNERS in the congregation of the righteous.
Psalm 21:8-10
8 Your hand will find all Your ENEMIES; Your right hand will find those who HATE You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your ANGER; The LORD shall swallow them up in His WRATH, And the FIRE shall DEVOUR them.
10 Their offspring You shall DESTROY from the earth, And their descendants from among the sons of men.
Psalm 90:11
Who knows the power of Your ANGER? For as the fear of You, so is Your WRATH.
Proverbs 11:23
The desire of the righteous is only good, But the expectation of the WICKED is WRATH.
Proverbs 11:30-31
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise.
31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the UNGODLY and the SINNER.
Isaiah 1:28
The destruction of TRANSGRESSORS and of SINNERS shall be together, And those who forsake the LORD shall be CONSUMED.
Isaiah 13:8-10
8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both WRATH and fierce ANGER, To lay the land desolate; And He will DESTROY its SINNERS from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
Jeremiah 10:9-11
9 Silver is beaten into plates; It is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of the craftsman And of the hands of the metalsmith; Blue and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skillful men.
10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His WRATH the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His INDIGNATION.
11 Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall PERISH from the earth and from under these heavens."
Jeremiah 44:1-6
1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews who dwell in the land of Egypt, who dwell at Migdol, at Tahpanhes, at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying,
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "You have seen all the CALAMITY that I have brought on Jerusalem and on all the cities of Judah; and behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,
3 because of their WICKEDNESS which they have committed to provoke Me to ANGER, in that they went to burn incense and to serve other gods whom they did not know, they nor you nor your fathers.
4 However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, "Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I HATE!"
5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their WICKEDNESS, to burn no incense to other gods.
6 So My FURY and My ANGER were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are WASTED and DESOLATE, as it is this day.
Nahum 1:2-3
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take VENGEANCE on His adversaries, And He reserves WRATH for His ENEMIES;
3 The LORD is slow to ANGER and great in power, And will not at all acquit the WICKED....
************************
Now, from the New Testament, God's current attitude and response toward such who practice such things........
Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth AGAINST those who practice such things.
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the JUDGMENT of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself WRATH in the day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will RENDER to each one according to his deeds"
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, on every soul of man who does EVIL, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
Ephesians 5
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the WRATH of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Colossians 3
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, EVIL desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the WRATH of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
2 Thessalonians 1
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the UNGODLY and the SINNER appear?"
2 Peter 2:5-7
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the UNGODLY;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live UNGODLY;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the WICKED
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for FIRE until the day of JUDGMENT and perdition (destruction) of UNGODLY men.
Revelation 11:18
The nations were ANGRY, and Your WRATH has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should DESTROY those who DESTROY the earth."
Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE, which is the second DEATH."
We see from the above verses that God says he is angry with the sinner, the ungodly, and the wicked and intends to do something about it.
The point of all this is to reveal how "unsound" teaching and doctrine easily infiltrate the Church. Probably most Christians don't realize how unscriptural the above cliche really is.
The problem with the stated cliche is that it takes Jesus Christ out of the equation when responding and confronting the activities of the wicked. Its true that Jesus said he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world (Jn 3:17). Nevertheless, the unsaved exist and are operating under God's patience and forbearance.
The reason the cliche is wrong is because God's love for the sinner is ONLY made available in His SON, Jesus Christ.
WE truly need to be aware that it is not scriptural and shouldn't use it. God's love is manifested toward sinners by His offering of Jesus Christ to them. We need to do the same.
Some Christians use the cliche because it is non-confrontational and is non-convicting to the sinner. The sinners like it for the very same reasons, plus, they can expect an attitude of love toward their lifestyle without reproach.
But the scripture says: Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them.
We as Christians have an obligation to preach the Gospel to the lost and warn them of their impending doom as was the case of Noah before the flood.
Restoring John 3:16 to its proper place seems to be in order when confronting darkness and avoid worthless sayings....
*****************
After believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, thus entering the Kingdom of God, we (believers) become recipients of God's LOVE:
John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him."
1 John 4:9
In this the LOVE of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might LIVE through Him.
1 John 4:10
In this is LOVE, not that we LOVED God, but that He LOVED us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 Corinthians 16:24
My LOVE be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
GOD HATES the SIN, BUT LOVES the SINNER - UNTRUE and UNSCRIPTURAL
Lets see what God's attitude and response has been toward such who practice such things.
The Old Testament bible passages...... Psalm 7:11
God is a just judge, And God is ANGRY with the WICKED every day.
JOB 20:26-29
26 Total darkness is reserved for his treasures. An unfanned FIRE will consume him; It shall go ill with him who is left in his tent.
27 The heavens will reveal his iniquity, And the earth will rise up against him.
28 The increase of his house will depart, And his goods will flow away in the day of His WRATH.
29 This is the portion from God for a WICKED man, The heritage appointed to him by God."
Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers provoked the God of heaven to WRATH, He gave them into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who DESTROYED this temple and carried the people away to Babylon.
Ezra 8:22
For I was ashamed to request of the king an escort of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy on the road, because we had spoken to the king, saying, "The hand of our God is upon all those for good who seek Him, but His power and His WRATH are against all those who forsake Him."
Job 21:30
For the WICKED are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of WRATH.
Psalm 1:6
For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the UNGODLY shall PERISH.
Psalm 1:5
Therefore the UNGODLY shall not stand in the judgment, Nor SINNERS in the congregation of the righteous.
Psalm 21:8-10
8 Your hand will find all Your ENEMIES; Your right hand will find those who HATE You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your ANGER; The LORD shall swallow them up in His WRATH, And the FIRE shall DEVOUR them.
10 Their offspring You shall DESTROY from the earth, And their descendants from among the sons of men.
Psalm 90:11
Who knows the power of Your ANGER? For as the fear of You, so is Your WRATH.
Proverbs 11:23
The desire of the righteous is only good, But the expectation of the WICKED is WRATH.
Proverbs 11:30-31
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who wins souls is wise.
31 If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the UNGODLY and the SINNER.
Isaiah 1:28
The destruction of TRANSGRESSORS and of SINNERS shall be together, And those who forsake the LORD shall be CONSUMED.
Isaiah 13:8-10
8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both WRATH and fierce ANGER, To lay the land desolate; And He will DESTROY its SINNERS from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
Jeremiah 10:9-11
9 Silver is beaten into plates; It is brought from Tarshish, And gold from Uphaz, The work of the craftsman And of the hands of the metalsmith; Blue and purple are their clothing; They are all the work of skillful men.
10 But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King. At His WRATH the earth will tremble, And the nations will not be able to endure His INDIGNATION.
11 Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall PERISH from the earth and from under these heavens."
Jeremiah 44:1-6
1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the Jews who dwell in the land of Egypt, who dwell at Migdol, at Tahpanhes, at Noph, and in the country of Pathros, saying,
2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: "You have seen all the CALAMITY that I have brought on Jerusalem and on all the cities of Judah; and behold, this day they are a desolation, and no one dwells in them,
3 because of their WICKEDNESS which they have committed to provoke Me to ANGER, in that they went to burn incense and to serve other gods whom they did not know, they nor you nor your fathers.
4 However I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, "Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I HATE!"
5 But they did not listen or incline their ear to turn from their WICKEDNESS, to burn no incense to other gods.
6 So My FURY and My ANGER were poured out and kindled in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; and they are WASTED and DESOLATE, as it is this day.
Nahum 1:2-3
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take VENGEANCE on His adversaries, And He reserves WRATH for His ENEMIES;
3 The LORD is slow to ANGER and great in power, And will not at all acquit the WICKED....
************************
Now, from the New Testament, God's current attitude and response toward such who practice such things........
Romans 2
God's Righteous Judgment
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth AGAINST those who practice such things.
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the JUDGMENT of God?
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself WRATH in the day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will RENDER to each one according to his deeds"
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--INDIGNATION and WRATH,
9 TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, on every soul of man who does EVIL, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
Ephesians 5
5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the WRATH of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Colossians 3
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, EVIL desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the WRATH of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
2 Thessalonians 1
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be PUNISHED with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
1 Peter 4
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 Now "If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the UNGODLY and the SINNER appear?"
2 Peter 2:5-7
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the UNGODLY;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live UNGODLY;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the WICKED
2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for FIRE until the day of JUDGMENT and perdition (destruction) of UNGODLY men.
Revelation 11:18
The nations were ANGRY, and Your WRATH has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should DESTROY those who DESTROY the earth."
Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the LAKE which BURNS with FIRE and BRIMSTONE, which is the second DEATH."
We see from the above verses that God says he is angry with the sinner, the ungodly, and the wicked and intends to do something about it.
The point of all this is to reveal how "unsound" teaching and doctrine easily infiltrate the Church. Probably most Christians don't realize how unscriptural the above cliche really is.
The problem with the stated cliche is that it takes Jesus Christ out of the equation when responding and confronting the activities of the wicked. Its true that Jesus said he didn't come to condemn the world, but to save the world (Jn 3:17). Nevertheless, the unsaved exist and are operating under God's patience and forbearance.
The reason the cliche is wrong is because God's love for the sinner is ONLY made available in His SON, Jesus Christ.
WE truly need to be aware that it is not scriptural and shouldn't use it. God's love is manifested toward sinners by His offering of Jesus Christ to them. We need to do the same.
Some Christians use the cliche because it is non-confrontational and is non-convicting to the sinner. The sinners like it for the very same reasons, plus, they can expect an attitude of love toward their lifestyle without reproach.
But the scripture says: Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them.
We as Christians have an obligation to preach the Gospel to the lost and warn them of their impending doom as was the case of Noah before the flood.
Restoring John 3:16 to its proper place seems to be in order when confronting darkness and avoid worthless sayings....
*****************
After believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, thus entering the Kingdom of God, we (believers) become recipients of God's LOVE:
John 3:16
For God so LOVED the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not PERISH but have EVERLASTING LIFE.
John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him."
1 John 4:9
In this the LOVE of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might LIVE through Him.
1 John 4:10
In this is LOVE, not that we LOVED God, but that He LOVED us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 Corinthians 16:24
My LOVE be with you all in Christ Jesus. Amen.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Blessings
Wow thats a bunch of information. Did you come up with that all yourself?
Still waiting to see you refute the verses I gave.
I already have
Does God love sinners and hate sin
Romans chapter 5
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Fundy what is so AMAZING about God's love for us ?
Isn't it because He loves us inspite of the sin in us that he hates.
This is the gospel .
I will use OT scripture to counter yours
Lord if you marked our transgressions who could stand.
Again we are not covered by His blood we are justified by His blood.
What does this mean ?
Little Sunday school lesson for us all
Justified --Just if i'd never sinned , if that's the case , who needs a covering ?, why would i need to be covered ?
This is your only enemy 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be
If God does not love the sinner, then the Cross was for nothing. NOTHING! This thread makes me sick.
The Lord is my Savior. He loved me first. He loved me, a sinner! He loved all of you...sinners!
If you have the Word of God dwelling in you, if you are filled with the Holy Spirit, if you do not lean on your own understanding, you will realize...He loves. He is not just wrath...hate.
I ache for our Lord because of these views expressed about our Lord. Why would anyone seek Him after reading only of His hatred?
Our Lord died on the Cross...a horrible death! Because He hated us? This is nonsense.
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