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On no! I just made a thread like this (Please out of respect only universalists respond to this thread-no debating)
You win!, no one is disputing that is not what it means. I don't know why some keep insisting that people have mistranslated the bible because no one has nor is this interpretation some kind of "light of truth" it isn't so now that we have established that. I have a question, just want to read your responses; no debate on my part just questions.
If there is no eternal torment then how is there eternal life with God? since the same Greek word is used for "eternal"?
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-12-2009 at 12:39 PM..
On no! I just made a thread like this (Please out of respect only universalists respond to this thread-no debating)
You win!, no one is disputing that is not what it means. I don't know why some keep insisting that people have mistranslated the bible because no one has nor is this interpretation some kind of "light of truth" it isn't so now that we have established that. I have a question, just want to read your responses; no debate on my part just questions.
If there is no eternal torment then how is there eternal life with God? since the same Greek word is used for "eternal"?
I'll let an anti-universalist respond.
This is from an article arguing against universal salvation. The quoted portion below is making a counter argument to the argument that "His mercy endureth forever" undermines the doctrine of everlasting punishment.
Quote:
(2) His mercy endureth forever; and is the same yesterday, to-day, and forever.
Yes, those gracious expressions mean much of joy and comfort; but, in the original, the word of which our English word forever is a translation does not mean exactly the same as forever or without an end. It means, rather, continuously as long as proper or necessary, until a proper end has been reached. To illustrate: In Lev. 16:34we read, "This shall be an everlasting (Hebrew, olam) statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins, once a year." And in verse 29we read, "And this shall be a statute FOREVER unto you: That in the seventh month and tenth day of the month ye shall...do no work at all." (Compare Exod. 21:6.) How long did "forever" or "everlasting" mean in those cases? Are those statutes still in force? No. When did that "forever" and that "everlasting" cease? At the cross. These, with all the other features of the Mosaic Law, ceased [R1454 : page 297] when Christ made an end of the Law, nailing it to his cross.
Just so in the texts quoted by Objector. God's mercy toward human sinners will endure until Christ makes an end of it in the close of the Millennial age. Mercy by that time will have exhausted every legitimate means for showing to sinners the path of life. More than that could not be called mercy. When all will have been done that can be done for sinners (and God's promises concerning the great work of Christ for the world during the Millennium are nothing short of this), then, the true, proper end of the mercy having come, divine Love and Justice will step forward and declare that those who have rejected this fulness of mercy shall be "cut off [not from their sins, but] from among the people."--Acts 3:23.
On no! I just made a thread like this (Please out of respect only universalists respond to this thread-no debating)
You win!, no one is disputing that is not what it means. I don't know why some keep insisting that people have mistranslated the bible because no one has nor is this interpretation some kind of "light of truth" it isn't so now that we have established that. I have a question, just want to read your responses; no debate on my part just questions.
If there is no eternal torment then how is there eternal life with God? since the same Greek word is used for "eternal"?
I asked the same question but it's funny that none wanted to admit that the same word used in the same sentence meant the same thing. LOL, it amazes me.
Some who believe in christian universalism use a different version of another bible which play with words.
Everywhere we use eternal and everlasting they replace with age-during and other words, but that does not change the context of the word. I looked in my hebrew and greek text and looked up the word and still means what it means.
There are some that believe that all will eventually come to heaven, which is not supported in scripture, and you can't find it in the torah either. There is nothing in the bible that says that Jesus will send someone to hell and then bring them to heaven as some believe.
In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity."
Endlessness=
Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives such as "not", "no not", "un", and "less."
For example:
"Of His kingdom there shall be no end" ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33);
"endless life" akatalutou (Heb. 7:16);
"endless genealogies" aperantois (1 Tim. 1:4)
& "nevermore" ou me eti (Rev. 18:21-23)
Greek Words That Denote Endlessness
Amarantos=
Unfading=
Not fading away. Perennial
Amarantinos=
Unfading.
Composed of amaranth. A flower so called because it never withers or fades, and when plucked off revives if moistened by water.
Akatalutos=
Endless
Not subject to destruction.
Indissoluable.
Aphthartos=
Incorruptible. Not subject to decay.
Imperishable.
Athanasia=
Immortality. Undying
Literally: deathlessness.
Aphtharsia=
Incorruption/ perpetuity.
NOTE:
There is no word in Scripture, Old or New Covenant, that expresses our idea of eternal. These words "denote" endlessness.
"It is an axiom of grammer that an adjective derived from a noun cannot mean more that its parent word. It must retain the essential meaning pertaining to the noun....The adjective cannot take on a greater meaning than the noun from which it is derived. For example, hourly, an adjective, pertains to an hour, not a year."
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–"unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible. " -G. Campbell Morgan-
I asked the same question but it's funny that none wanted to admit that the same word used in the same sentence meant the same thing. LOL, it amazes me.
Some who believe in christian universalism use a different version of another bible which play with words.
Do not be amazed Miss Shawn. Let me assure you Dr. M. Vincent is NOT a believer in the restitution of all things. If you have evidence to the contrary please notify Birdbrain immediately! This is what he has written....
-Dr. Marvin Vincent-
The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.
Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting. Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of His being, or whether some different idea was not contemplated...
Thus while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes.
On no! I just made a thread like this (Please out of respect only universalists respond to this thread-no debating)
You win!, no one is disputing that is not what it means. I don't know why some keep insisting that people have mistranslated the bible because no one has nor is this interpretation some kind of "light of truth" it isn't so now that we have established that. I have a question, just want to read your responses; no debate on my part just questions.
If there is no eternal torment then how is there eternal life with God? since the same Greek word is used for "eternal"?
This point has been covered several times by myself and others. Aionion life and aionion punishment do not denote duration. Aionion life and aionion judgment are to be understood as revealed by God through the ages. To have aionion life is to have God reveal himself to you. To receive aionion punishment is to be "corrected"(kolasis) by the revelation of god at the culmination of the ages when he has fully completed his purpose for the ages.
When the new testament refers to the unending duration of life, it uses the greek word aphthartos, which is found used 7 times in the new testament. There is a reason why "aionion zōē" is used in the places it is used instead of aphthartos, they mean different things.
In order to understand the purpose of the ages/aion read Ephesians chapter 3. It is in this light, the purpose of the ages(which is the revelation of God who has been hidden from the ages and is revealing himself through christ), that the word aion and aionion/aionios should be understood.
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(Please out of respect only universalists respond to this thread-no debating)
but the Lord is speaking through you .
