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Does it really matter what the lexicon says about apollumi when Jesus says that He came to save the which wasapollumi?
No, I don't think it does matter.
I know some people don't like links.
But I find they can be very helpful to help others understand why we believe like we do
I suppose that was too much truth to take on. So let me post it again. I'm sure we all have great testimonies but what does that have to do with my post? Testimonies are personal experiences and unbelievers/atheists aren't impressed with personal experiences. I'm trying to reach the lost.....what are you doing? What does God's Word tell us to do?
I believe that many can be reached out to through personal testimony. Just as Jesus told a person that He had helped, to go tell what God had done for him. (Mark 5) God bless.
When you really look at what you said one can see quite clearly who you believe. The above came directly from YOUR original post.
There is no "I" in God or Jesus. You see what you want to see, you believe what you want to believe and you glean from the scriptures things that are clearly not there.
There will be a high price to pay for those misleading others and leading them away from the truth of God's Word and straight into hell. Don't believe me? Then believe the Bible....lean not on your own understanding or the false teachings of others.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be falseteachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Put any kind of spin on the above scripture that you want, but my advice to universalists is to read the word for what it says, not what you want it to say.
Synonyms for destruction: annihilation, decimation, demolishment, demolition, desolation, devastation, extermination, extinction, havoc, loss, obliteration, ruin, ruination, wastage, wreckage Related Words for destruction: depredation, despoilment, despoliation; breakup, disintegration, dissolution; assassination, execution, killing, massacre, slaughter
And here is the greek translation for "destroy", just to save you the trouble:
Destroy = APOLLUMI (90): apo = away or from + ollumi = to ruin, undo, lose utility; to totally remove something to eliminate its purpose or usefulness; that is, to destroy it. In God's FCM (NT), Apollumi may represent either an action taken to "DESTROY" something, for something or someone to "PERISH" or the effect upon that which is destroyed to "BE LOST."
These very same things could be said about how you believe. As a matter of fact that is how many people understand(that your beliefs are fallacious) what you believe(eternal torture). The point is that everyone believes what they want to believe. You want to believe what you have been taught the bible means all your life, and so you do. You want to believe it so much you aren't even willing to consider the alternatives. The fact is there are over 32,000 denominations of Christianity who all have some different view of biblical interpretation ... How are you so sure all your interpretations are correct in light of this fact? At least Christian universalists can rest assured that Universal reconciliation and/or apocatastasis was originally the most widely accepted interpretation of scripture in the early church before Rome took over Christianity. We are confident and have ample evidence both scripturally and historically that our understanding of scripture was the one that was received by the very fist Christians directly from the apostles.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-19-2009 at 02:58 PM..
At least Christian universalists can rest assured that Universal reconciliation and/or apocatastasis was originally the most widely accepted interpretation of scripture in the early church before Rome took over Christianity. We are confident and have ample evidence both scripturally and historically that our understanding of scripture was the one that was received by the very fist Christians directly from the apostles.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
God's Truth For Today! - Author Index (http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html - broken link)
IN THE GARDEN
In The Garden - Index (http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html - broken link)
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar. The Law of Circularity
At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject. Savior of the World Series
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-19-2009 at 06:04 PM..
Reason: highlighting
I don't know how one can claim that UR was taught by the Christian Church, when Jesus says otherwise.
John 3:36 (New International Version) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
UR is very much like repeating the oldest lie told by the devil, “Did God really say . . . ?,” the serpent asked (Genesis 3:1). Then in defiance of God’s assertion he said, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).
In the same way universalism questions, “Has God really said there is eternal death if you reject his Son? You surely will not die.” That explains why the doctrines of sin, judgment, and hell have all but disappeared from much of their "Christian" theology....
I don't know how one can claim that UR was taught by the Christian Church, when Jesus says otherwise.
John 3:36 (New International Version) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
UR is very much like repeating the oldest lie told by the devil, “Did God really say . . . ?,” the serpent asked (Genesis 3:1). Then in defiance of God’s assertion he said, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).
In the same way universalism questions, “Has God really said there is eternal death if you reject his Son? You surely will not die.” That explains why the doctrines of sin, judgment, and hell have all but disappeared from much of their "Christian" theology....
Twin spin,
Have you ever read any of the links that have been posted? Especially have you thought about how an age which has a beginning and end, can also be eternal? Whoever believes in the Son has eternal{aionian} life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world{aion} ; and the reapers are the angels.
There is judgement on sin and it is death. No Christian universalist disputes the wages of sin being death, and also there is the lake of fire which is the second death
However there is also life after death - that is what resurrection is
I don't know how one can claim that UR was taught by the Christian Church, when Jesus says otherwise.
John 3:36 (New International Version) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
UR is very much like repeating the oldest lie told by the devil, “Did God really say . . . ?,” the serpent asked (Genesis 3:1). Then in defiance of God’s assertion he said, “You will not surely die” (Genesis 3:4).
In the same way universalism questions, “Has God really said there is eternal death if you reject his Son? You surely will not die.” That explains why the doctrines of sin, judgment, and hell have all but disappeared from much of their "Christian" theology....
This verse has to be understood in light of what the rest of scripture has to say about aionios zōē(age-during life) ... Aionios life is not to be confused with immortality(aphtharsia) ... In Jhn 17:3 we see that aionios zoe(age-during life) is to know God and Christ whom he sent. Thus we see aionios zoe refers to the quality of the life and not the duration. We find this to be true also by the fact that it is listed along with aphtharsia(immortality) along with glory and honor in Rom 2:7. These four things are separate qualities ... Immortality and aionios life are not the same thing. They do not both refer to living forever.
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal(aionios) life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
This is the same as Jhn 3:18 ... It refers to the regeneration of those that believe and are made new creatures in this life. Aionios life is a gift that is had in Christ even though we still are in the sinful flesh. It is the fact that the spirit abides with us and convicts us and comforts us.
As believers we are not appointed unto wrath but to a aionios life in this world and in the resurrection to glory in the kingdom age to come. This is the reward of the election. I understand that the reason why a God shows his wrath in the day of judgment to those that do not believe in this life is the same reason why he chastises those of us that believe now in this life, for the purpose of spiritual renewal, otherwise he would just leave them dead. They will undergo fiery judgment and suffer loss, but will be saved thereby ... 1 Cor. 3:15 ...
Its typical to equate those of us who believe in UR with the serpent. But you are misrepresenting the argument of UR. We are not saying that the wicked will not suffer wrath, we are saying that the purpose of God in his aionios correction is for renewal in the end.
For aionios, or any combination thereof, to mean "eternal" its noun form MUST mean eternal. It doesn’t. It is impossible for the adjective aionios to mean eternal. Aionios is an adjective. Just as the function of "American" (adj.) is to inform us of that which pertains to America (it is never greater than "America") thus also the function of "aionios" (adj) is to inform us of that which pertains to the eon(s). It is never greater than the eons. No aion is eternal. Therefore it is impossible for that which pertains to the eons to be eternal. See
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
A common argument is that the subject matter changes aion from meaning a long period of time to eternal. This is simply not true.
There are many places in the Bible where the translation of aion as eternal or everlasting makes no sense at all. But there are no places in the Bible where the translation of aion as a limited period of time does not make perfect sense.
Copy and paste into Google
tentmaker comparative concordance Comparative Concordance of how the Greek words aion and aionios are translated in various Bible translations
TWO COMMON QUESTIONS
QUESTION ONE:
If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of God come to an end?
ANSWER: Of course God is eternal, but that is not what the use of the word aionios is saying about Him. God is the God of the eons.
• THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING Literal Translation versus / King James Version
•
Heb.1:2 God made the eons / God made the worlds
I Cor. 2:7 before the eons / before the world
2Tim.1:9 before eonian times / before the world began
• THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY Heb. 9:26 the end of the eons / the end of the world
1 Cor. 10:11 the ends of the eons / the ends of the world
Matt. 24:3 the end of the eon / the end of the world
• HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from eons Past / hid from ages
Lu. 20:34 this eon Present / this world
Eph. 2:7 eons to come Future / ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
• THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
• Eph.3:8-11 purpose of the eons / eternal purpose
Eph. 1:9-1l; PhiI.2:9-l1; Col.1:l5-21; I Cor. 15:20-28
QUESTION TWO: If aionion NEVER means eternal, won’t the life of the believer come to an end since the word is applied to both the life of the believer, and the punishment of the non-believer?
ANSWER: While the believer is enjoying aionion life, the unbeliever will experience kolasis aionion Matthew 25:46 (which means age-during corrective chastisement). Chapter Eleven
Believers do receive aionion life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (I Cor. 15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Aionion life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (I Cor. 15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.
There is a Greek word that Young translates eternal and that is "aidios" as in Romans 1:20, “eternal power and Godhead.” It can mean eternal unless it is limited by a qualifying phrase.
See Young’s literal translation of the Bible.
It compares with the Hebrew word qedem in Deut. 33:27 which should read
“The eternal (qedem) God is my refuge, and underneath are the age-during (olam) arms. (see Young's literal translation)
The Hebrew word olam compares with the Greek word aionios. Both of them refer to a limited period of time.
Jesus never allowed himself to use it in connection with punishment, nor did any of his disciples but one, and he but once, and then carefully and expressly limited its meaning. Can demonstration go further than this to show that Jesus carefully avoided the phraseology by which his contemporaries described the doctrine of endless punishment? He never adopted the language of his day on this subject. Their language was aidios timoria, endless torment. His language was aionion kolasin, age-lasting correction. They described unending ruin, He, discipline, resulting in reformation.
God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7) The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious, and it is not limited to this lifetime as the orthodox church would have us believe. It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity. Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17) Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment, but they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life.
Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours. God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come. He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come. Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age. This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments. The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold.
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Ironmaw is right
