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UR is offering another gospel. It offers the chance to reject Jesus with no consequences. I mean, you really don't need a savior in UR, just a second chance.
Quote:
This is simply a lie. Why do you insist on lying about what we say and believe? is it to simply discredit what we say, or is it because of denial and your unwillingness to honestly receive what we are saying regardless of whether or not you choose to agree?
There are severe consequences for rebelling against God and we have been saying that all along, but those consequences are not eternal as you would believe them to be. They are aionios(age-during). you Keep repeating the same scripture over and over knowing full well that aion does not mean forever or eternal or everlasting.Repetition of fallacies and denial do not change the facts.
Then you go and quote Galatians 1:9. I am not sure what translation that is but there is no word in that verse that could even remotely be construed to mean eternally or condemned. The word anathema is used in that verse which does not mean condemned, it means excommunicated
Amen, it happens time and time again!!!!! God bless.
Then Phazelwood....you are walking a dangerous line. Your pride won't allow you to worship or love a certain God that your carnal side can't and won't understand. We are clay, we are pottery, we are nothing in front an absolutely Holy God. We have no clue what is righteous or even have audacity to judge God's righteousness. GOD's soverignty is righteous
Read 1 John. If you are not worshipping the correct God then you are not saved-If you do not have the Father rightly then you do not have the Son either. You better be 100% right about YOUR God.
Fundy
It seems that, just as you accuse others of walking a dangerous line, you are walking a dangerous line -- For those who have been shown a lot - a lot is required, and you appreciate and accept the sovreignity of God, but do not appreciate his goodness - that while you were a sinner [/b]God loved you[/b] and sent Jesus to die for you - you accept this gift for yourself, to save yourself from a wrathful God - then you stop there.
Your view of God is wrathful and we need to appease a wrathful God.
People are showing you scripture that shows that it does not stop there that after "the first resurrection" {first fruits} there is a SECOND RESURRECTION {general harvest} the general harvest is not thrown away the husks are thrown away and the grain is kept ------ we are told that Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
A question I have is about the reading that you seem to be doing, most is from John Calvin, who was a murderer, who showed no remorse - how can you accept so easily without much questioning his teachings when the fruit he was showing was bad?
Meerkat,
Yes, I have. But the same can be asked from myself or others. Again, you are conveniently not equating that those who reject will also be thrown into the lake of fire (where all evil will reside after ressurection) ... anything other than that is not scriptural.
The lake of fire is THE SECOND DEATH Resurrection is life after death.
Evil will not eternally exist in an actual lake of fire - Revelation is a book using symbols and when it says the the "lake of fire" is the second death - it means that it is actually the second death And resurrection is life after death.
As I was indoctrinated in my youth with the doctrine of eternal torment for non believers - yes I know how scripture is used to come up with the "doctrine"
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2
Fundy
It seems that, just as you accuse others of walking a dangerous line, you are walking a dangerous line -- For those who have been shown a lot - a lot is required, and you appreciate and accept the sovreignity of God, but do not appreciate his goodness - that while you were a sinner [/b]God loved you[/b] and sent Jesus to die for you - you accept this gift for yourself, to save yourself from a wrathful God - then you stop there.
Your view of God is wrathful and we need to appease a wrathful God.
People are showing you scripture that shows that it does not stop there that after "the first resurrection" {first fruits} there is a SECOND RESURRECTION {general harvest} the general harvest is not thrown away the husks are thrown away and the grain is kept ------ we are told that Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Luk 13:20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
Luk 13:21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
A question I have is about the reading that you seem to be doing, most is from John Calvin, who was a murderer, who showed no remorse - how can you accept so easily without much questioning his teachings when the fruit he was showing was bad?
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
Which view of salvation is true?
These two links specifically respond to that question.
Arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.
Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.
Aminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.
The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either cannot, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.
The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.
A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of universal transformation.
The truth of universal transformation solves all of the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.
Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.
It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace through Christ. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.
God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.
The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
WHICH VIEW OF SALVATION IS TRUE?
These two links specifically respond to that question.
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
You are conveniently not equating that those who reject will also be thrown into the lake of fire (where all evil will reside after ressurection) ... anything other than that is not scriptural.
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did. If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then: The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do?
It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
The Bible says that God is love. Love is not just one of God’s attributes.
God is not just a loving individual. God is love in essence.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong (Arminian) that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering! Or, they deserve to suffer forever (Calvinist), just because they were born into the human race.
Love Divine - by D. Buchanan
“FROM the lips of love's apostle, exiled for love on Patmos' lonely isle, there sounds out in the saying, "God is Love," the most concise and comprehensive utterance in all language, the most sublime declaration of truth by mortals ever heard. These three one-syllable words reveal the character of God and make it to be known that behind things, as the source and fountain-head from which they spring, there throbs the one great heart of infinite, unchanging love.
Although, to finite understanding, life may meanwhile seem a tangled skein, and providence a confusion, yet when all the processes of Love have run their course, then it will be seen that the history of the ages, the story of the race, can be written with one small word, the term of infinite fullness that tells us what God is.
"God is Light" and "God is Love." Light, in passing through a prism, is separated into its component parts and appears as the seven colors of the rainbow. Each separate shade is a manifestation of light, and, although no one color in itself is light, yet without it light would not be what it is. So, too, the invisible love-light of Deity, passing through the prism of divine providence, appears as mercy, as righteousness, as goodness, as power. The operation of each attribute is a manifestation of love, and although no one quality in itself is love, yet without it, love would not be what it is. As the blue is in contrast to the red in the rainbow hues, so righteousness is to mercy in the spectrum of love. When the mercy manifestation of itself accomplishes God's purpose, then mercy is glad that righteousness was not required, for "mercy rejoiceth against judgment." Yet the heart that moves the mercy hand is the same heart that, if need be, moves the judgment hand, and that heart is God, and God is Love.
God loves just because He is Love, yet Love's hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love's victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length the creature heart responds in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.
And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love's perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”
From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.
If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.
I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers claim to love and worship.
Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.
This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.
This is so frustrating. Why do you guys insist on blatantly misrepresenting UR?
This is simply a lie. Why do you insist on lying about what we say and believe? is it to simply discredit what we say, or is it because of denial and your unwillingness to honestly receive what we are saying regardless of whether or not you choose to agree?
There are severe consequences for rebelling against God and we have been saying that all along, but those consequences are not eternal as you would believe them to be. They are aionios(age-during). you Keep repeating the same scripture over and over knowing full well that aion does not mean forever or eternal or everlasting. Repetition of fallacies and denial do not change the facts.
Then you go and quote Galatians 1:9. I am not sure what translation that is but there is no word in that verse that could even remotely be construed to mean eternally or condemned. The word anathema is used in that verse which did not originally mean condemned, it meant excommunicated.
Ironmaw,
No offense, but if we can't agree on English word, quoting the Anathema in Greek is futile. Since your application of the english is not scriptural (of course you'd differ), I would not agree to any Greek that you throw out there.
From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.
If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.
I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers claim to love and worship.
Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.
This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.
When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”
So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.
Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.
At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.
My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.
Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.
So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.
Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by gradually learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See Bible Threatenings Explained
From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
“That God may be All in all” 1Cor.15:28
Ironmaw,
No offense, but if we can't agree on English word, quoting the Anathema in Greek is futile. Since your application of the english is not scriptural (of course you'd differ), I would not agree to any Greek that you throw out there.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this ... I don't suppose it really matters. The truth is the truth regardless of either of us think. I trust the evidence i have been given, and the conviction of my spirit in regard these things. I imagine you would disagree with just about anything if you didn't learn it in Sunday school or from an acceptably orthodox source. Why think outside the box? Its lonely out here after all ...
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God bless.
Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
