I'm a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist (purification, believing, Christ, Kingdom)
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You made an excellent point here. Please expound on this because from my perspective you do not believe nor understand the sovereignty of God? Does it really matter if you and I could cope with it that CHANGES NOTHING......The question still remains, is it true?
(Romans 9:20) On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Fundy, I believe it is precisely because of the sovereignty of God that sooner or later God will save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILLS.
This exposition is so good on why we URs believe that.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading) http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
Fundy, I believe it is precisely because of the sovereignty of God that sooner or later God will save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILLS.
This exposition is so good on why we URs believe that.
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading) http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/index.html The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.
I am talking about aspects of God we can't cope with or understand? I am asking you the same question I asked Phazelwood. Could you worship and love a God IF He created an eternal hell to eternally torment souls?
Would you still love, embrace and bow to the wisdown and goodness of that God?
Not so fast because Phazelwood, do you respect the sovereignty of God. If you found that hell IS eternal, that your loved ones would suffer eternal torment forever, loved ones who have had a rough go in this life and were just searching for a better way even though life dealt them so many blows.
Would you still love and cherish that God?
oh that answer comes real fast because it is a no brainer.
No I would not love and cherish that God. Having Sovereighty does not EQUAL having righteousness.
This scenario is always painted by someone who thinks that their belief will keep them from the horrors that they pretend to cherish so much.
How about loving and cherishing that God knowing you were selected to be damned for eternity?
oh that answer comes real fast because it is a no brainer.
No I would not love and cherish that God. Having Sovereighty does not EQUAL having righteousness.
This scenario is always painted by someone who thinks that their belief will keep them from the horrors that they pretend to cherish so much.
How about loving and cherishing that God knowing you were selected to be damned for eternity?
Then Phazelwood....you are walking a dangerous line. Your pride won't allow you to worship or love a certain God that your carnal side can't and won't understand. We are clay, we are pottery, we are nothing in front an absolutely Holy God. We have no clue what is righteous or even have audacity to judge God's righteousness. GOD's soverignty is righteous
Read 1 John. If you are not worshipping the correct God then you are not saved-If you do not have the Father rightly then you do not have the Son either. You better be 100% right about YOUR God.
Then Phazelwood....you are walking a dangerous line. Your pride won't allow you to worship or love a certain God that your carnal side can't and won't understand. We are clay, we are pottery, we are nothing in front an absolutely Holy God. We have no clue what is righteous or even have audacity to judge God's righteousness.
Read 1 John. If you are not worshipping the correct God then you are not saved. You better be 100% right about YOUR God.
Answer my question to you, then I will respond to this.
If you are not worshipping the correct God then you are not saved.
How do you know you are worshipping the correct God?
Here in lies the problem. As Phazelwood has pointed out in the past:
If God has created this place for eternal torture, how do you know you are not destined for it? How do you know you are not deceived? What assurance can there be?
Luckily scripture tells us we are saved by grace through faith, neither which is from our own efforts.
I am talking about aspects of God we can't cope with or understand? I am asking you the same question I asked Phazelwood. Could you worship and love a God IF He created an eternal hell to eternally torment souls?
Would you still love, embrace and bow to the wisdown and goodness of that God?
NO, I COULD NOT POSSIBLY LOVE SUCH A GOD! That is precisely my problem! And I am so glad that there is convincing evidence that the Bible does not teach that God is like that.
Jesus is the Creator and Sustainer of all creatures.
“All things were created by Him and for Him” Colossians 1:16
As a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist I believe that all suffering is allowed by Jesus. But sooner or later Jesus will transform all suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, including both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience. Chapter Eleven
Don’t kid yourself; there is no getting around it no matter how hard you try.
If anyone were to suffer forever, Jesus would be doing it to them in the sense that He would be allowing it to happen by sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of never ending suffering.
Copy and paste into Google
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY - WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?
Or click on The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
or The Law of Circularity
No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world. Fruit from the Teaching of Hell
Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionios” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
Copy and paste into Google
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
Or click on The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Have you ever read any of the links that have been posted? Especially have you thought about how an age which has a beginning and end, can also be eternal? Whoever believes in the Son has eternal{aionian} life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world{aion} ; and the reapers are the angels.
There is judgement on sin and it is death. No Christian universalist disputes the wages of sin being death, and also there is the lake of fire which is the second death
However there is also life after death - that is what resurrection is
Meerkat,
Yes, I have. But the same can be asked from myself or others. Again, you are conveniently not equating that those who reject will also be thrown into the lake of fire (where all evil will reside after ressurection) ... anything other than that is not scriptural.
NO, I COULD NOT POSSIBLY LOVE SUCH A GOD! That is precisely my problem! And I am so glad that there is convincing evidence that the Bible does not teach that God is like that.
I have no clue what this means other than a bunch of rheotoric that is used to somehow change people's mind. My friend even if you could change my mind today then someone will come tomorrow with even better evidence to change my mind back.
THE GOSPEL is what changes minds and hearts. It is the power of God's word that wakes His elect. It is used to pound every man's conscience and reveals to us we are in trouble infront a holy, just God who is bound by His nature.
I have had many debates with my friends if universalist are Christians (my friends are arminians as well), they say not but I say only the universalist who love God no matter what they believe or accept. You obviously can't love a certain God and you say there is evidence to what you believe but in saying this you must also see some evidence to the contrary too so for your sake you better be 100% correct because my friend you are waging your eternal soul on something your corrupt, fallen nature can't "cope" with.
Not my job to convince you of anything Fundamentalist. Just answer the question.
Quote:
How about loving and cherishing that God knowing you were selected to be damned for eternity?
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No, i could not possibly love such a god!
