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When God told Abraham I have made thee the father of many nations, why was God not lying?
So when God told Abraham that he would have a bunch of children, God knew this because God was already in Abrams future just as much as he was in Abrams present.
So God did not have to guess or use some type of special powers to foresee the future.
God knew Abraham would have millions of children because God was looking at them as he spoke to Abraham.
God calls things we cant see or find as if he can see them and find them.
From our point of view it cant be done.
But God is not limited by time, so even if we dont see something yet, God is always looking clearly at it.
So this is why he calls things that are not as if they were.
Yeah, I think it speaks to the surety of what God sees or foresees. It is so 100% sure that God can call it "done" without lying.
Here's another...
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I still see this as mostly an argument in semantics... If I could foresee the future clearly and perfectly then I could experience the future "now" and so I would effectively not be bound by time and foreseeing and seeing would be indistinguishable. Above says God knew (not foreknew) Jeremiah before he was born.
Yes, I see that difference... still not much practical effect on us... but putting God inside time is more limiting, yes.
Here's an interesting verse. Not that it proves anything either way.
Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
The other thing I was thinking. God calls things which are not as though they were. Normally we call that "lying" calling something "is" that IS NOT. So why was God not lying? When God told Abraham I have made thee the father of many nations, why was God not lying?
You mean like "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
If the church says God will only have mercy on whom He will have mercy does this mean God was lying with this verse ?.
So when God told Abraham that he would have a bunch of children, God knew this because God was already in Abrams future just as much as he was in Abrams present.
So God did not have to guess or use some type of special powers to foresee the future.
God knew Abraham would have millions of children because God was looking at them as he spoke to Abraham.
That's basically how I look at it, but I think the way Pneuma is looking at is has the same basic effect.
BTW... IMO that's talking about spiritual children, not physical children.
You mean like "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
If the church says God will only have mercy on whom He will have mercy does this mean God was lying with this verse ?.
Yeah that's funny (not really). God says at the very least that He may have mercy on all, but the church says God absolutely will not have mercy on all.
And Jesus christ was not slain from the foundation for all of humanity, but only for the election of grace, whose names had been written in the lambs book of life..
What Im saying is the same basic lessons we all learned in our Sunday school class.
Alan just because one learns this type of thing in Sunday school does not make it correct.
We learn lots of things we find out later are not true.
For example: the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is an apple.
Do you still believe that?
What I am asking for is scripture to back up what you believe, and if you cannot find scripture to back your belief up then it should be set aside as unscriptural.
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It's the Omnipresence of God we are dealing with.
That God is essentially present at and in all of time, but is not bound by time in any way.
We read how God is unlimited.
In Jeremiah 23:24 God declares, "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"
Psalm 139:7–12 god is everywhere, yet not bound to any place more than another
Isaiah 57:15 talks about the nature of god being not bound to what we call "time"
I don’t disagree with this.
But just because God is present at all times does not mean He sees creation as complete at all times.
The scripture does not say God calls those things that are done as though they are done, it says God calls those things that are NOT done as though they were done.
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Now I know there are some verses that do seem to suggest that my ideas are wrong, that rather than being unlimited that God is very limited... Verses where God is said to go up or down. Where he turns his face away from people.
But when such language is employed (Isaiah 64:1,2), it must be recognized for what it is - just metaphorical language, and should not be seen as running counter to his true unlimited nature.
God not seeing things that are NOT does not limit God because He has the foreknowledge that all things will be done as He foresees them.
Jesus said while hanging on the cross “it is finished”
So am I to believe you when you say it was finished 6000 years ago, or Jesus who said it was finished 2000 years ago?
Without scriptural proof Alan what you believe is just an opinion, howbeit an opinion shared by many, but that still does not make it correct.
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So when God told Abraham that he would have a bunch of children, God knew this because God was already in Abrams future just as much as he was in Abrams present.
So God did not have to guess or use some type of special powers to foresee the future.
God knew Abraham would have millions of children because God was looking at them as he spoke to Abraham.
Alan if that is so than God has no foreknowledge (knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen) at all.
By looking at things, the way you do foreknowledge becomes a mute point.
Yeah, I think it speaks to the surety of what God sees or foresees. It is so 100% sure that God can call it "done" without lying.
Here's another...
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I still see this as mostly an argument in semantics... If I could foresee the future clearly and perfectly then I could experience the future "now" and so I would effectively not be bound by time and foreseeing and seeing would be indistinguishable. Above says God knew (not foreknew) Jeremiah before he was born.
Bob that is probably the best scripture Alan could use to make an argument on.
But you will note that the scripture does not say Jeremiah was born into the world before he was born into the world it says BEFORE I formed thee in the belly. Do we really want to open that can of worms?
Now you could be right, maybe it semantics, but the way Alan puts it forth as God seeing completion takes away foreknowledge, because it takes away the knowledge that something’s is going to happen and says it already happened.
And Jesus christ was not slain from the foundation for all of humanity, but only for the election of grace, whose names had been written in the lambs book of life..
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