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A woman who is pregnant expects to bring forth a child not something else.
God gave man freewill and knew because He gave man freewill that man would use it and sin. But that does not mean God planned for man to sin, He just knew man would because He had given him freewiil.
And because He gave man freewill He made provisions for man when man used their freewill to sin,
I understand that is what you believe, but as far as plan/provision we weren't talking (above) about the sin part, we were talking about "the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" part. So what I'm saying is that since God foreknew man would sin then God would have planned what to do about it from the beginning. Saying that doesn't imply that God planned the sin part. So to me, whether you are right or wrong, God would have planned Christ to die from the beginning since God foreknew the sin part.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 07-26-2009 at 10:45 AM..
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
What we see in this text is that both "foreknew" and "predestined" are working as a team.
each is equal...
We say God can 'foreknew' because we know from our study that God knows everything and cant learn anything new.
So before the creation was started God already knew all that was to be and all he would ever know.
And not only did God know, but the text now teaches that working with this knowledge is God's action.
The term "predestined" is speaking to us about the direct action of God into creation.
The problem of sin pops up now in the conversation whenever we talk about the term "predestined'
I think it is wrong to view the matter of sin in the world as something God had to plan around...
God is not just planning around our sins, he used them like a potter used clay to form what he wanted in us.
God is not stuck ad-libbing his way around our sins...
This then leads to the huge question of the lost... Did God also foreknow (always know)and also predestined (to take action) in the case of the Lost too?
the answer is...."yes"
Hard as it may be to understand, any other answer turns God into a victim of history, swept along and unable to control the forces He has created...
I understand that is what you believe, but as far as plan/provision we weren't talking (above) about the sin part, we were talking about "the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" part. So what I'm saying is that since God foreknew man would sin then God would have planned what to do about it from the beginning.
LOL, I realsie that is what you are saying brother, but I would say God made provisions about what He would do about it from the beginning.
But either way we look at it, plan or provision that does not mean it took place before the time of its appointment and that time was 2000 years ago not 6000 years ago.
Just because God foreknows an event will take place does not mean it has already taken place and as the scripture says slain as something being already taken place I maintain that, that scripture was speaking of 2000 years ago and not 6000 years ago.
"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
What we see in this text is that both "foreknew" and "predestined" are working as a team.
each is equal...
We say God can 'foreknew' because we know from our study that God knows everything and cant learn anything new.
So before the creation was started God already knew all that was to be and all he would ever know.
And not only did God know, but the text now teaches that working with this knowledge is God's action.
The term "predestined" is speaking to us about the direct action of God into creation.
The problem of sin pops up now in the conversation whenever we talk about the term "predestined'
I think it is wrong to view the matter of sin in the world as something God had to plan around...
God is not just planning around our sins, he used them like a potter used clay to form what he wanted in us.
God is not stuck ad-libbing his way around our sins...
This then leads to the huge question of the lost... Did God also foreknow (always know)and also predestined (to take action) in the case of the Lost too?
the answer is...."yes"
Hard as it may be to understand, any other answer turns God into a victim of history, swept along and unable to control the forces He has created...
Again Alan I don't disagree with forekowedge and predestination, but to say because God has foreknowledge and predestinates us to be saved does not make us saved until the event actually happens.
For if they already have taken place there is no foreknowledge and no predestination because they are contrary one to the other.
LOL, I realsie that is what you are saying brother, but I would say God made provisions about what He would do about it from the beginning.
But either way we look at it, plan or provision that does not mean it took place before the time of its appointment and that time was 2000 years ago not 6000 years ago.
Just because God foreknows an event will take place does not mean it has already taken place and as the scripture says slain as something being already taken place I maintain that, that scripture was speaking of 2000 years ago and not 6000 years ago.
Say I suck at basketball and I played you one on one last week. We can now say:
1. I was beaten in our game last week (because you did beat me)
2. I was beaten in our game before we even started playing (because I suck and we both knew you'd win)
1. Is is literal -- corresponds to Jesus Christ was literally slain 2000 years ago
2. Is looking at a foregone conclusion -- corresponds to Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.
I just don't see the problem with saying "planned". But no big deal for me, I don't know if it even says it or not because of the translations. But to me it was a forgone conclusion that God would arealdy have a plan or provision in place to rescue us, so whether it says it or not, I believe it's true.
For if the event has already taken place there really is no foreknowledge at all.
Sometimes we get mixed up in understanding the term "foreknowledge" when we use it connected to God's nature.
God is not held in time.
God does not have to glance ahead in the book of time to see how the story ends...
Think more along the lines of when you look at a painting on the wall.
There is no start to it as you look at it.
nothing comes before something else.
There are no page numbers to the painting.
When you look at the painting, you take it all in at once.
the whole painting is meant to be seen as a whole.
That is a lot like God sees what we call 'time'
So it is not just that God cheated and opened the book to the ending and read that part where I got saved and that is his only foreknowledge...
No!...
Rather from God's point of view, He has been with me forever.
I have always been saved.
There never was a "moment" I was not saved. My whole life is like a finished painting that God is looking at.
My salvation was always part of that painting.
I just don't see the problem with saying "planned". But no big deal for me, I don't know if it even says it or not because of the translations. But to me it was a forgone conclusion that God would arealdy have a plan or provision in place to rescue us, so whether it says it or not, I believe it's true.
And I have no problem with that Bob, I just have a problem when people say that having foreknowledge of an event is the event.
Sometimes we get mixed up in understanding the term "foreknowledge" when we use it connected to God's nature.
God is not held in time.
God does not have to glance ahead in the book of time to see how the story ends...
Think more along the lines of when you look at a painting on the wall.
There is no start to it as you look at it.
nothing comes before something else.
There are no page numbers to the painting.
When you look at the painting, you take it all in at once.
the whole painting is meant to be seen as a whole.
That is a lot like God sees what we call 'time'
So it is not just that God cheated and opened the book to the ending and read that part where I got saved and that is his only foreknowledge...
No!...
Rather from God's point of view, He has been with me forever.
I have always been saved.
There never was a "moment" I was not saved. My whole life is like a finished painting that God is looking at. My salvation was always part of that painting.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
these scriptures go against what you have presented above.
What do people say that equates having foreknowedge of an event with the event?
Read Alans posts.
Got to run
God bless
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