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To me this whole "foundation of the world" issue kind of a moot point whether you are right or wrong. I mean, lets suppose that you are right and God never intended for man to sin. Even in that case God still would have foreknown that man would sin and so God would have foreknown from the foundation of the world that Christ would need to be slain 2000 years ago. So either way God would have planned from the beginning to send Christ to die, even if that was never what God ideally intended to occur.
Bob the only thing I would change in your statement is I would say God made provisions for man from the beginning.
Plan --a method of doing something that is worked out in advance
Provision--a preparatory step taken to meet a possible or expected need
God has no starting point, and no ending point.
So it's not just that God is forever young...Rather God is simply not bound by what we call 'time'
God can not get even a day older that he already has always been.
"Before Abraham came to be, I am"
That is what Jesus said, and lots of people go on and on about what He meant by that.
But what I think it means is connected to what Im talking about with the nature of God being unbound to time.
"I am", not "I was"
Not something hinting that Jesus was very old, like "I saw him"
No, Jesus said "I am"
It's like saying to us, "I see Abraham" ,rather than saying "I saw Abraham"
The context is that right there and then, Jesus was existing before Abraham was born.
A concurrence timelessness to creation.
Both here with us, and before us and after us.
God is just not part of time.
This makes time something that God made...time is a part of creation...it's a thing....like a tree, a rock, a star. Time has no hold or effect on God at all...
God has no starting point, and no ending point.
So it's not just that God is forever young...Rather God is simply not bound by what we call 'time'
God can not get even a day older that he already has always been.
"Before Abraham came to be, I am"
That is what Jesus said, and lots of people go on and on about what He meant by that.
But what I think it means is connected to what Im talking about with the nature of God being unbound to time.
"I am", not "I was"
Not something hinting that Jesus was very old, like "I saw him"
No, Jesus said "I am"
It's like saying to us, "I see Abraham" ,rather than saying "I saw Abraham"
The context is that right there and then, Jesus was existing before Abraham was born.
A concurrence timelessness to creation.
Both here with us, and before us and after us.
God is just not part of time.
This makes time something that God made...time is a part of creation...it's a thing....like a tree, a rock, a star. Time has no hold or effect on God at all...
Alan I don't disagree that God is without time and yes time was created because He says time will be no more.
What I disagree with is people using God being without time to explain was is written in time according to the scriptures.
Bob the only thing I would change in your statement is I would say God made provisions for man from the beginning.
Plan --a method of doing something that is worked out in advance
Provision--a preparatory step taken to meet a possible or expected need
I would only say "provision" instead of "plan" if I believed that God does not have foreknowlege. For example, say I'm taking a trip to Seattle. I bring an umbella to make provision for rain. I buy AAA to make provision or car trouble. But if I know that it will rain and my car will break down then I'm planning to use them. Just because I plan to use them does not mean I wanted to use them or caused them to be needed. A provision is for "just in case" but there is no such thing as "just in case" for someone with foreknowlege.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 07-26-2009 at 10:19 AM..
So God knows all he will ever know...
And God is in time at all points in the way way. no more "here" with me now as he is right now with me at my birth.
God is "here" with me as I write this post to you.
and...
God is 'there' with me as I die and come back to life in the Resurrection
as he is 'there" with Adam in the garden.
There is no "before'...no "after'...that binds God.
God does not feel the effect of time,,,God does not live from "moment to moment" as humans do.
God only has one "moment"
So before God created the thing we called time...before the word 'before" had a meaning to it...Even at the point God was already 'there' with His only son as he died on the cross...
And the cross is the real reason for everything!
The cross is why there are stars in the night sky...and why there are trees and rocks on the earth, and why children are born ...
Thus, Jesus is said to be the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world, because when you look at the cross from God's point of view, it has always been...
It has always been in both the past tense, and in the present tense, and in the future tense...because such terms as 'tense" are but shadows of how God really looks at this creation of his.
The answer falls to what point of view you are talking about.
From my human point of view, then I can name the day and hour I became saved.
one moment I was dead, the next i was alive forever...
But that is not the same as how God looks at my salvation.
From God's point of view, when was I first saved?.....
the answer is- "Alan was saved before the foundation of the world"
I would only say "provision" instead of "plan" if I believed that God does not have foreknowlege. For example, say I'm taking a trip to Seattle. I bring an umbella to make provision for rain. I buy AAA to make provision or car trouble. But if I know that it will rain and my car will break down then I'm planning to use them. Just because I plan to use them does not mean I wanted to use them or caused them to be needed. A provision is for "just in case" but there is no such thing as "just in case" for someone with foreknowlege.
A provision is more then just in case.
A woman who is pregnant expects to bring forth a child not something else.
God gave man freewill and knew because He gave man freewill that man would use it and sin. But that does not mean God planned for man to sin, He just knew man would because He had given him freewiil.
And because He gave man freewill He made provisions for man when man used their freewill to sin,
The answer falls to what point of view you are talking about.
From my human point of view, then I can name the day and hour I became saved.
one moment I was dead, the next i was alive forever...
But that is not the same as how God looks at my salvation.
From God's point of view, when was I first saved?.....
the answer is- "Alan was saved before the foundation of the world"
The same is true for all the church.
No Alan was not saved before the foundation of the world, God foreknew you were going to be saved and thus wrote your name in the book of life.
What people seem to want to do is take God foreknowledge of an event and make that foreknowledge the event itself, but the event does not really take place until its appointed time. For if the event has already taken place there really is no foreknowledge at all.
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