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Scott, he's not saying there are any physical parenthesis in the greek text. You are misunderstanding him. It's a matter of interpretation. When he says "not sufficiently noticed" he's not talking about any physical parenthesis marks that went unnoticed.
Hes talking about the mode of speach.
Do you really think He would have stated such if it was not there?
would not stating something that was not there bring him under ridicual of from other Greek scholars?
Man did not have to be disobedient to overcome evil with good, bless those who cursed him, love his enemies, forgive the trespasses against him or endure suffering and overcome sin.
I see that to support your point you conveniently ignore most of what God's Word says about salvation and the conversion process.
There are three entities at play - the mind, the flesh, and the spirit.
The flesh is our physical bodies and is created/programmed by God to function the way it does. It does much on its own, and none of that is "sin"; it fights disease, it causes breathing to happen, it creates chemicals to signal our minds that we are hungry, sleepy, in pain, comfortable, etc.
Our spirits are the parts of us that are given by God. It is our spirits which cause us to understand God to the extent that we can, and to understand the Will of God.
The mind strives to control both body and spirit. The mind is carnal because in our natural state, as we are born into sin, our mind seeks to serve and satisfy the flesh rather than the spirit. A renewed mind (renewed by the Holy Spirit) seeks to serve the spirit which is given of God. But our mind (heart) is renewed as a result of our conversion, which comes by faith first, then repentance. It is up to us to believe and then repent due to that belief.
The Bible is clear that faith does not come by a renewed mind, but by HEARING, and hearing comes by the Word of God. This is why we are given the Great Commission to spread the Gospel. If the Holy Spirit were going to cause Salvation by renewing only the minds of those whom he has chosen then we'd be either wasting our time or playing a game by witnessing and preaching the Gospel. It is clear that there is a reason for spreading the Gospel, and that the Gospel message is what needs to be HEARD by each person, because each person has his or her own will.
All people have a will with a God-given freedom to make choices. If not, then sin would in effect be impossible. Sin is the result of choosing one's own will over God's. If we were in a position where our wills were "locked in" to either obeying God or disobeying God then there would be no importance to spreading the Gospel or to salvation; those whom the Holy Spirit would never renew, no matter what, would not respond to the Gospel message.
To say we have NOTHING to do with our salvation is stupid, because salvation is granted individually. By virtue of that alone, each person has to have something to do with his or her own salvation. My repentence is my own, nobody can repent for me. The Holy Spirit can't repent for me, unless God's Word is a lie, which it isn't. I must repent. If my repentence is a work of the Holy Spirit then it is not MY repentence at all; I am reduced to a bystander.
You say that nobody can "take credit" for accepting salvation; how is it a "credit" to a person to accept a gift rather than reject it? In either case, the person has done nothing. Making a decision does not change the value of the gift. If someone wants to give me a $20 gift card, whether I take it or not the gift is still a $20 gift card, I have no credit to take for the gift itself. And if I accept the gift, it would be a false pretense for me to accept credit for the $20 value of it. Even when I spend that and benefit from the gift card, I can't take "credit" for having created the value of the card, the value was there regardless of my acceptance. My acceptance of it only means that I am involved in benefitting from it; there is no "credit" to be taken for benefiting.
Salvation is indeed based on our exercise of our free wills. Yes, we each have a carnal mind. The carnal mind goes against what God's Word tells us. That is why when one believes in God's Word the belief is based on FAITH; it is based on a belief chosen by us, with our carnal minds, to go against what our carnal minds find "logical" and to accept Christ through repentance and acceptance of Him, and THEN the Holy Spirit renews our minds, and makes us "new creatures". After salvation, our minds, even though still infected with sin, strive to seek God's Will over our own.
I don't understand why you want to call God's Word a lie with your own man-made doctrine.
the Head of the body cannot say to the feet I have no need of you.
Do you really think He would have stated such if it was not there?
He didn't say anything is "there" in the greek text. If you think he said that you misunderstand what he's saying.
Quote:
would not stating something that was not there bring him under ridicual of from other Greek scholars?
No. The greek scholars would understand him the same way I do. You are misunderstanding him if you think there are any physical markers in the text. The phrase in question is no where near "Christ" in the text. He is saying that other translators did not notice that the phrase in question could be applied to Christ via a paranthetical phrase, and since it could be applied to Christ, it must be because to apply to Herod etc. would be "impious and absurd". He's doing the same thing you are doing.
Bob in order for man to enter sin and death man had to be disobdeint correct? Is that not what you mean by God planned for man to enter into death?
You said "Man did not have to be disobedient to overcome evil with good, bless those who cursed him, love his enemies, forgive the trespasses against him or endure suffering and overcome sin."
But I never said that. For example, I am a man. I do not have to be disobedient to forgive sinners. Your mischaracterization of what I said, implies that one must be disobedient to be like Christ..
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 08-23-2009 at 10:34 PM..
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before you try to pull the mote out of my eyes get rid of the beam in your own.
the Head of the body cannot say to the feet I have no need of you.
