Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
MATTHEW 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, NEITHER WILL YOUR FATHER FORGIVE YOUR TRESPASSES.
This is another statement of condition, not a statement that some will not meet the condition. It only explains the condition. You cannot be forgiven if your unforgiving, nothing in the verse says "some will not be forgiven" That is changing the words.
You focus on only the part of the verse so it twists to your belief.
Quote:
MATTHEW 7:21 NOT every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Again, you emphasize a word and it twists to what you believe and the twist is adding the bias "Some will not enter" the verse does not say that.
There is no declaration that "Some will not enter" only a declaration that just saying Lord Lord is not enough "he that doeth the will of the father" is the condition.
YOU may believe that there are some who will never do the will of the father, but this verse does not make that declaration.
I will address some of your scriptures and I hope this will clear up your misconceptions about universal salvation. No we do not believe Jesus lied, nor does the bible contradict itself. Jesus is the savior of all men, and He will have all men to be saved.
First:
Matt 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
If at a certain point you don't forgive others, then the Father will not forgive you. Is this a finality, the final nail in the coffin of our fate? If so, we would all be doomed, because we have all had circumstances where we did not forgive someone right at that moment. However, later on, perhaps after weeks (or months or years) you forgave that person. Does that mean that the Father still would not forgive you? No, if you do forgive then the father will forgive. Like Phazelwood says above, this statement is not implying that some will never be forgiven. URers believe eventually all will be forgiving, so God will forgive all.
Mat 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
The error here is assuming "many" means "less than all". The word many just means "alot" or "much" or "large amount". Consider how we use the word "many" today. I could say this:
There are many people in the world.
Is this statement referring to ALL the people in the world? Yes it is. All it is saying is there are alot of people in the world.
So all Matt 20:28 is saying is that Jesus will save a large amount (many) people. Whether this is all or "less than all" is not specified.
Regarding the other verses you mentioned about entering the Kingdom of God; I believe you are making an error in assuming those who do not enter the Kingdom will not be saved. I have a slightly different view on this than other UR believers perhaps. I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is only referring to the Reign with Christ. See how its referred to in Young's Literal Translation:
Mat 7:21 Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
It is quite true that not everyone will reign with Christ. Some will reign in the Kingdom, but others will be subject to the Kingdom (Matt 8:12). I will expand more on this later in another post, as my daughter is calling right now.
What verse describes what? A universalist as I think, was saying that verse does not have to say word for word. This sounds like an excuse for not finding a verse that says anything about God sending someone to hell and then bringing them to Heaven temporarily.
So, there arguement says that the bible does not have to say word for word. So, if so, where is the scripture that says God will send someone to hell and then bring them into heaven.
This is another statement of condition, not a statement that some will not meet the condition. It only explains the condition. You cannot be forgiven if your unforgiving, nothing in the verse says "some will not be forgiven" That is changing the words.
You focus on only the part of the verse so it twists to your belief.
No, what you are doing is twisting. I know it doesnt say "some will not be forgiven" But it does say "if you are not forgiving, neither will your father forgive you"!!! PLAIN ENGLISH!!! No twisting necessary. If you need me to put it in spanish, chinese or any other laguage so that you can read what IT SAYS, I would be happy to do so!!!
There is no declaration that "Some will not enter" only a declaration that just saying Lord Lord is not enough "he that doeth the will of the father" is the condition.
So you admit that just saying Lord, Lord is not enough!!! But enough for what??? Perhaps enough to be saved!!! And "he that doeth the will of the father" is enough then right??? Your even contradicting yourself. I am not the one stating that the bible is full of parables, hidden meanings, and conditional statements. I have never changed words. NOT ONCE!! Maybe I do read most of what the bible says to be literal. Because I do believe that God's word is what it says it is. I have never checked on this "Youngs literal translation" but I find it funny that the word literal is even in his translations title. Yet you universalists look at most of the bible as anything but literal!! It boggles the mind how deceptive, not only universalists are, but the belief itself. Why do you guys push your beliefs so hard onto people?? Obviously, not to save people because your beliefs are that we are all already there. Well good luck on finding the real truth!!!
GOD BLESS!!! ALMOST2L8
Last edited by ALMOST2L8; 09-05-2009 at 09:21 AM..
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.[f] 23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
When we are unforgiving we are in a prison of our own making , and remain there UNTIL we payback all we owed.
The Keyword is until.
Thank the Lord for the until .
What a lot of christian are not aware of is when you stand in judgement of sin or what you perceive to be sin in others, you are in unforgiveness , not understanding what great mercy the Lord had on you.
So "key word" until huh??? So for a mass murderer, with say...... 30 child deaths on his hands, would be until when??? You dont think that God would be just in sending a mass child murderer to his death sentence!!! I do!!! Believe foolishly then that even he will get the joys of heaven.......well eventually!
So "key word" until huh??? So for a mass murderer, with say...... 30 child deaths on his hands, would be until when??? You dont think that God would be just in sending a mass child murderer to his death sentence!!! I do!!! Believe foolishly then that even he will get the joys of heaven.......well eventually!
GOD BLESS!!!!
ALMOST2L8
No i don't because God'd justice is different to ours and He's merciful to the worst of us .
Yes i do believe He will be judged and his judgement will be severe , but no i do not believe for one moment He gets damned eternally. Even the justice system of the world now shows mercy more often than not .
The Apostle Paul had the blood of dead men on his hands , what do you think he deserves for his crime from God , while He was a murderer God loved him .
By the way just because you believe something doesn't mean it's right . When you begin to understand the depths of your own heart without God in yur life , you tend to be far more forgiving and merciful.
Amen....!
I'm sticking with Jesus!! The latter is man's theory of what Christ proclaimed!!
But keep enduring..... posting the "TRUTH" of Gods precious word. You just never know what the Holy Spirit is doing and whom He is leading and has prepared to read your post!!!
Blessings
Me too. More and more I'm beginning to see that UR'ers always have a deep theological response backed by questionable interpretations of the scriptures to support their position, much like the Pharisees probably did during their day to bolster their POV. Despite their bending and twisting of logic (well, that passage is in reference to their body, but not their soul because the soul resides within the body, or some such thing) there is always the plain language of the scriptures, such as Almost just quoted, to bring us back to reality. If it has to be explained with more than a few sentences, run from it because it probably is rooted in New Age "don't worry, we're all going to heaven" heresy that is spreading like wildfire in these last days.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 09-05-2009 at 10:25 AM..
Me too. More and more I'm beginning to see that UR'ers always have a deep theological response backed by questionable interpretations of the scriptures to support their position, much like the Pharisees probably did during their day to bolster their POV. Despite their bending and twisting of logic (well, that passage is in reference to their body, but not their soul because the soul resides within the body, or some such thing) there is always the plain language of the scriptures, such as Almost just quoted, to bring us back to reality. If it has to be explained with more than a few sentences, run from it because it probably is rooted in New Age "don't worry, we're all going to heaven" heresy that is spreading like wildfire in these last days.
Thrill that's strange that you liken the UR'ers to Pharisees , when the UR'ers believe and want all to come, and the ET'ers want the opposite.
From my recollection it was the Pharisees who Jesus said stood in the way of people entering in .
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It boggles the mind how deceptive, not only universalists are, but the belief itself. Why do you guys push your beliefs so hard onto people?? Obviously, not to save people because your beliefs are that we are all already there.
! 
