How can all be saved when jesus said...... (Revelation, belief, pray)

[thrillobyte]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Thrill that's strange that you liken the UR'ers to Pharisees , when the UR'ers believe and want all to come, and the ET'ers want the opposite.

From my recollection it was the Pharisees who Jesus said stood in the way of people entering in .

What I meant pc, was that the scriptures are pretty straightforward about hell. I can look at "because straight and narrow is the gate that leads to life" and see it for what it is--plain as day. But then a UR'ist takes it and says something like "leads to life.... life as in the living.... this has nothing to do with saved after death..." Suddenly "life" is not "eternal life" it is life here on earth and has nothing to do with afterlife. Hundreds upon hundreds of screwy interpretations of pretty plain and simple scripture. I think the Pharisees were doing the same thing with the OT.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by thrillobyte

What I meant pc, was that the scriptures are pretty straightforward about hell. I can look at "because straight and narrow is the gate that leads to life" and see it for what it is--plain as day. But then a UR'ist takes it and says something like "leads to life.... life as in the living.... this has nothing to do with saved after death..." Suddenly "life" is not "eternal life" it is life here on earth and has nothing to do with afterlife. Hundreds upon hundreds of screwy interpretations of pretty plain and simple scripture. I think the Pharisees were doing the same thing with the OT.

Well i happen to believe the scriptures are pretty straightfoward regarding the restitution of all things , which more importantly agree's with the nature and character of God.
The Pharisee problem was strining at gnats and swallowing camels. They rejected love , mercy and humility for pride, self righteousness and condemnation.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828

What verse describes what?

It appears that you wrote that scripture does not have to say something word for word. I was merely asking a question about this. Is there any scripture or scriptures that describe what you wrote?

A universalist as I think, was saying that verse does not have to say word for word. This sounds like an excuse for not finding a verse that says anything about God sending someone to hell and then bringing them to Heaven temporarily.

I would say that often people expect scripure to read a certain way as a means of argument. Fact is, scripture does not have to read as anyone expects or demands of another. I have not applied my expectations, I explained verses using only the words they contained. The post I have responded to demands that the verse implies a phrase that is not contained in the verses and even admits that it doesn't.

The question I asked you did not provide my expectations, I wanted you to show scripture describing what YOU said.

So, there arguement says that the bible does not have to say word for word. So, if so, where is the scripture that says God will send someone to hell and then bring them into heaven.

I understand and agree to a point in what your saying. Understanding scripture is also about not contradicting.

For instance.

I believe 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now you can come and pick it apart to tell me what you think it means, but I simply believe it. If you intend to label me something for believing it, fine, I believe it and you will not be able to adequatly explain the verse so that I will find a "SCRIPTURAL" reason not to.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8

No, what you are doing is twisting. I know it doesnt say "some will not be forgiven"

Well, I'll let the facts speak for themselves and you can deny them in whatever language you prefer.

So you admit that just saying Lord, Lord is not enough!!! But enough for what??? Perhaps enough to be saved!!!

This is another form of twisting, there is nothing that I need to admit because I have already explained that the verse is saying that just saying lord lord is not enough.

And "he that doeth the will of the father" is enough then right??? Your even contradicting yourself.

Perhaps, but then why wouldn't doing the will of the father be enough? Please explain my contradiction so perhaps I can learn.

I am not the one stating that the bible is full of parables, hidden meanings, and conditional statements.

I never stated that was any kind of a problem

I have never changed words. NOT ONCE!!

You add a phrase that is not in the verse.

I have never checked on this "Youngs literal translation" but I find it funny that the word literal is even in his translations title.

Good point, but I have simply used the verses you wrote and how they were written.

Yet you universalists look at most of the bible as anything but literal!!

Another good point, but that doesn't change that there is no translation that reads "Some will not enter the kingdom of heaven"

It boggles the mind how deceptive, not only universalists are, but the belief itself.

Why is it people who claim to know the truth are so troubled all the time about things. It does not boggle my mind that you believe what you do. I simply do not believe it. It's not troublesome at all. Please go and pray for freedom from your boggledom.

Why do you guys push your beliefs so hard onto people??

You are free to not believe a word I say, this is emotional nonsense that has no meaning whatsoever. I have the Godly right to share my faith so go complain to God about it.

Obviously, not to save people because your beliefs are that we are all already there. Well good luck on finding the real truth!!!

Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


YOU may disagree with what I believe, but I have been instructed by Jesus to preach. I challenge you to try to tell me that's not a good enough reason.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

It appears that you wrote that scripture does not have to say something word for word. I was merely asking a question about this. Is there any scripture or scriptures that describe what you wrote?



I would say that often people expect scripure to read a certain way as a means of argument. Fact is, scripture does not have to read as anyone expects or demands of another. I have not applied my expectations, I explained verses using only the words they contained. The post I have responded to demands that the verse implies a phrase that is not contained in the verses and even admits that it doesn't.

The question I asked you did not provide my expectations, I wanted you to show scripture describing what YOU said.



I understand and agree to a point in what your saying. Understanding scripture is also about not contradicting.

For instance.

I believe 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now you can come and pick it apart to tell me what you think it means, but I simply believe it. If you intend to label me something for believing it, fine, I believe it and you will not be able to adequatly explain the verse so that I will find a "SCRIPTURAL" reason not to.

It appears that you wrote that scripture does not have to say something word for word. I was merely asking a question about this. Is there any scripture or scriptures that describe what you wrote?

Well, lets see, I will just pick a subject about Jesus. We don't know anything about His life growing up, all we know is that He was born God, in Mary's womb, then we are brought all the way to Him being being a grown man. We don't know anything about His childhood or teen or anything else. So, does a bible have to really say word for word on certain subjects.

But, I see how some people are trying to say that the bible does not have to say this, but this is what He was saying. Not true. There is nothing that say that God will send someone to Hell and then bring them out of that. Jesus never implies that will ever happen. I am not saying that He want, but, He say, I am the way, the truth and the life. So, if others are worshipping other gods, there god want give them life.

I would say that often people expect scripure to read a certain way as a means of argument. Fact is, scripture does not have to read as anyone expects or demands of another. I have not applied my expectations, I explained verses using only the words they contained. The post I have responded to demands that the verse implies a phrase that is not contained in the verses and even admits that it doesn't.

I don't expect or read scripture a certain way, I read it as it is there.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. So, if people are worshipping other gods, they can't get to the Father.

The only expectation is to believe what Jesus is saying. It is only my faux expectation if I believe that I can worship another god and then get to Jesus, then to the Father, by not doing it the way that Jesus said.

The question I asked you did not provide my expectations, I wanted you to show scripture describing what YOU said.

I said the scripture does not have to say word for word, but has to be what Jesus has said through His mouth.

Ok, I will just pick one verse, John 14:6. This verse does not say anything about other gods, nothing about what you think of the Father, nothing about how you feel about other gods, nothing about going to hell and so forth, but this verse says " You can't come to the Father, except through Jesus" Does it say word for word how to come to Jesus, or what to say to Jesus, or what you have to think of Jesus, no, it says you can't come to the Father except through me. That is what I was talking about.

I believe 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Yes, I wish that also, but 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

New King James Version (NKJV)

God wants all men to be saved, but all men will not come to Him. Yes, I am reading the NKJV and I know that you are going to argue that all bible except your is correct, but if you read the Hebrew bible, which is a better version of all english bible, say or use the word anqrwpous (is willing) to be swqhnai (saved) ( this is how my computer is doing the text)

But anyway as I read the hebrew bible and study this verse, it is saying to me that God will have all men to be saved who is willing to be saved.

The words of Jesus, I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

So, Jesus is saying that anyone can have eternal life who come to Him, whoever, does not mean that all will come to Jesus to have life. He says whoever hears, but all have the opportunity if they like, it is their choice, but all and it is evidence that all will not.

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828

God wants all men to be saved, but all men will not come to Him.

That's your conclusion, but of course, there is no word for word declaration that "but all men will come to him" so you are building a doctrine around what you want to believe.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe this, you do not. Simple.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Phazelwood

That's your conclusion, but of course, there is no word for word declaration that "but all men will come to him" so you are building a doctrine around what you want to believe.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I believe this, you do not. Simple.

No, it is not my conclusion. I suggest you read the hebrew bible, it will be very useful to you. What I provided for you was not my words, but from the bible you choose to not believe. Read that same scripture in the hebrew bible and then look up the words and see what they mean.


That particular scripture is in greek, NT. Read it.

1 Tim 2:4 ὃς (who) πάντας (all) ἀνθρώπους (humans) θέλει ( is willing) σωθῆναι ( to be saved) καὶ (and) εἰς (into) ἐπίγνωσιν (on-knowledge) ἀληθείας (of-truth) ἐλθεῖν (to be coming).

Now if you study that scripture in its full text, you will get the full understanding of what it means.

NOw universalist want to argue all the time that english version has been tainted, but as you see, we are looking at the greek.

Who all humans is willing to be saved and into knowledge of the truth. So, what is this saying? Is it saying that all humans will be saved and brought into knowledge of the truth, or is this saying all humans who are willing to be saved into knowledge of the truth?

Look it up for yourself, so you don't think that I am making this up. I prefer to read the hebrew and greek and then go back into the english text.

I take scripture for what it says not what it doesn't say.

[katjonjj]

Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8

Speaking of a kingdom does not place you there but, if someone said I could not enter into the kingdom of the United States. Then plain and simple I cannot enter the U.S. wether I am in Iraq or Austrailia. If your Idea of the kingdom of heaven is this place, then I shutter to think how you explained hell to your daughter.

It would mean they cannot be a citizen otherwise why qualify the statement with "kingdom?" Still doesn't mean they can't step foot on US soil...
My "idea" of the kingdom of heaven is that it is a spiritual place. Jesus corrected His followers erroneous idea of an earthly kingdom many times....yet 1 cor. 15 talks about this idea that the kingdom is a not open to flesh and blood, vs. 47 talks about the first man being of earth and second man being "from" heaven... was Jesus' flesh and blood in heaven then sent into Mary to be born? Therefore it is an "idea" a spiritual state not an actual place..IMO

MATTHEW 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW be there that FIND IT.

We are way past the trillions in earth population so your THEORY is still placing Jesus as a liar. Because believe me we are way past a few living!!! And nowhere in scripture did Jesus state that ALL would be saved.
BTW I never stated that I believe in the place of eternal torture called hell!!!


GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8

So you are saying that there is ONE path to your "heaven" and few will find it? Does it really say that? Or is it saying that few will find the path to Jesus' teachings of LIFE?

The word many is not all inclusive nor is it completely exclusive... Just a word... Yet you are using that word as basis for your assumption that Heaven is a literal place that some are excluded from. Using that logic we can also say the 1 cor 15:2 saying "By this gospel you are saved..." means that Jesus didn't save but the gospel did.

BTW- I let my daughter believe in a God that wouldn't send people to burn forever. She doesn't need that burden, and neither did God intend her to. Accept the word of God as a little child does for they are accepting of many! Not as an adult who's heart is hardened. IMHO...

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828

No, it is not my conclusion.
NOw universalist want to argue all the time that english version has been tainted, but as you see, we are looking at the greek.

Ancient greek is only known in a translated form. You need to take your objections to a universalist who argues all the time that the english version has been tainted. I've never stated anything of the kind.

Who all humans is willing to be saved and into knowledge of the truth.
Look it up for yourself, so you don't think that I am making this up. I prefer to read the hebrew and greek and then go back into the english text.

Your not reading greek or hebrew, your reading it in a translated form, that's the only way you can read it. You have selected words that you accept and through those words it allows yourself to come to a conclusion without having to provide a scripture that is word for word what you say.


If you say "not all will come to God" it contradicts the following wording.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

So therefore you need different wording to draw your conclusion.

The problem is that your wording also causes another biblical contradiction but to many times your so busy defending points that are not word for word in scripture I wonder if you even care.

Who actually saves man, God, or does man save himself?

[spm62]

Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8

So "key word" until huh??? So for a mass murderer, with say...... 30 child deaths on his hands, would be until when??? You dont think that God would be just in sending a mass child murderer to his death sentence!!! I do!!! Believe foolishly then that even he will get the joys of heaven.......well eventually!
GOD BLESS!!!!
ALMOST2L8

What if that mass murderer prayed the sinners prayer and God changed his heart? Would he be saved?
What if a child dies at the ripe old age of let`s say 11 or 12 but never said the sinners prayer? Would that child be saved? Please don`t resort to the well, only God knows their heart answer, I can`t say. Because you are making a stand on who should or shouldn`t be saved in this post. According to churchology, that mass murderer would get the joys of heaven while that 11 yr old who knew right from wrong but never confessed Christ would be tortured unmercifully day and night forever.
So you would have a mass murderer in heaven and a child who only lived but a few short years on this earth in a torture chamber forever and ever. Is that the God you worship? That is the God of churchology. Do you see that? It has nothing to do with being a mass murderer or a young child who never hurt anyone. That murderer could have lived 60 yrs in prison and finally come to know Christ. The young child didn`t have 60 yrs to come to know Christ but never did anything as horrible as killing people. But according to the church, the mass murderer goes to heaven, the child goes to torture.
You are making the mistake that most church followers make. You are trying to instill your brand of justice on God and trying to use the bible to back it up. In other words, the bad guys get theirs and the good guys go to heaven. But none are good. Not even you. You are not worthy of heaven, my friend. You are no more worthy than that mass murderer. You may be more worthy in society`s eyes but not in God`s. You may be more worthy in man`s eyes, but not in God`s.You do not deserve the joys of heaven, no more than a murderer does. Only God can save you. It is nothing that you do.Unfortunately you are limiting God. You are saying God is unable or unwilling to save everyone. Both are unscriptural. God is willng that all come to the knowledge of Christ. God is able.
How did YOU come to Christ? Did you do it all on your own? Why won`t Christ do for everyone what he did for you? The bible says NOONE can come to Christ unless God drags him. So the only way you come to Christ is that God draws or drags (greek) you. Why would God daw or drag you but not others? It is easy to want an eternal hell when you don`t believe you are the one going there.
If you do some early church study you will find that for the first 500 years the early christian belief was that God would restore his creation. The idea of eternal torture was introduced by Rome and outside pagan religions.
The church wants you to believe you are part of an exclusive club. That you are better,smarter, and wiser than your neighbor who doesn`t believe in God. That might make you feel wise or special but the truth is, you had nothing to do with your salvation. You are but the clay, my friend. God is the potter. You are not wiser or more knowing than your neighbor. You are not more special in God`s eyes. That is just your pride speaking to you. What God did for you, he will do for your neighbor. What God did for the mass murderer who accpeted Christ on his deathbed he will also do for that 11 yr old who never accepted Christ in their extrememly short life on this earth. We will all face God`s fiery judgment at some point. He is the great refiner. There is no heart that he can`t reach. He did not create untold billions of people just to watch satan take the overwhelming majority of it. The church teaches that satan wins out but that is a lie. Satan will not get any of God`s creation. Perhaps you believe Satan gets what he wants, which is just about everything God has created. Perhaps you believe satan wins out. God created us because he wants sons and daughters. Satan says I will keep God from having that and take the overwhelming majority of what YOU...GOD have created. Why do you believe such lies? Why do you believe satan takes what is God`s? Why do you believe satan is more powerful than God? Please don`t say you don`t believe satan is more powerful than God,because if you believe satan is able to take the overwhelming majority of God`s creation and satan is able to thwart God`s plan, then that is exactly what you believe, whether you want to openly admit it or not.