If you cannot love an endless-hell god (prophet, passages, accept)

[trettep]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Ironmaw to Fundamentalist
"If your goal is 'to grow in holiness with a correct heart' as you say,
then stop telling people that their loved ones who died while not being Christian are burning in hell or are going to be tortured for ever ... Stop spreading spiritual terror and start loving your enemies and praying that God will save all people."
1Timothy 2:1 and 4

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist


How do you know what our circumstances are Fundy?
And what does physical hunger have to do with understanding truth?

First you say that legoman is "full of pride" simply because he is able to give reasons for the hope that is in him.

And now you make the blanket statement that we Universal Reconciliationists "sit at our computers with stuffed bellys."

Do you know what is "absolutely sad" to me?

That anyone can do as much laughing as Calvinist Fundamentalist does on his posts, or that they can even ever crack a smile for that matter, all the while believing that God created some of His creatures to sustain them alive in an inescapapble state of eternal suffering forever, presumably for the purpose of eternally demonstrating to everyone how "holy" He is.

Several Calvinists have told me that the fact that I can't believe like they do shows that I am not one of the elect like they are, and I therefore am going to have to suffer forever.

That was the kind of thinking that caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.

If I truly believed the Bible teaches that, I would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that.

Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.

IMO people like Ray and Preston and George know the real Jesus.
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

By Rodger Tutt, in Toronto, Canada

Seems to me that he is as stuck on being anti-universalist as you are stuck on the wrong meaning of aionios. Those things both seem right to both of you and each of you seem content on embracing that illogical conclusion.

Paul

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by trettep

Seems to me that he is as stuck on being anti-universalist as you are stuck on the wrong meaning of aionios. Those things both seem right to both of you and each of you seem content on embracing that illogical conclusion.

Paul

Good morning Paul. Have a nice day!

At least both you and I believe in the eventual salvation of all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills, by what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

One might say that what both you and I believe is infinitely different from what eternal tormentors believe.

On previous posts you have stated how you believe that God will achieve this all-inclusive salvation based on the meaning of words.

For anyone who might be interested, my point of view about that is expounded here
The Savior of the World series by J

BTW Paul, do you know of anyone else who shares your point of view?
Just curious

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by legoman

Yes of course I chose to post this. You miss the point Latte'Chic. The point is: we choose to do things based on what we think is true. But what we think is true may be a deception. Athiests choose to not believe in God because their eyes have not been opened yet. But when God opens a person's eyes, they will choose to follow Christ, because now they see!

Satan deceives the world (Rev 12:9). One of the ways he deceives the world is by tricking people into thinking they are in control, when really God is in control.

So what you are saying Latte'Chic, is that God revealed himself to you, revealed how sinful you were and then based on that you chose to follow him. Exactly! If God hadn't revealed this to you, you would have continued in your sin, blind to God, and deceived.

Just like others, who have not had those revelations yet; they will not choose to follow Christ, simply because God hasn't revealed Himself yet. And while they are in that state - they are deceived, and don't even know it.

Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God."

Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”

Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's, but it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.

God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.

God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by lifesigns64

after this life, I don't believe there are any more chances,

I don't believe God saves anyone by chance, either first, or second, or more.

I believe God saves everyone on purpose, according to His perfect timing for each individual.

Here is a poem by L.C., posted with permission of THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN that expresses my understanding of God's desire, ability, and determination, to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills.

In future days oh will there be
Another chance to yet make good?
Does God intend to let us see
If lessons learned were understood?

To let us start life o'er again
With stronger faith, and greater pow'r-
A life without the sin and pain,
Without temptation hour by hour?

Oh no! God nothing leaves to chance,
He made a settled perfect plan,
Each move well thought out in advance
With overwhelming good for man.

Creation all He'll reconcile-
The whole of it--both heav'n and earth.
Though evil may all minds beguile,
Yet in His cross true peace had birth.

Yes--having made this perfect peace
He'll draw all men to Him at last;
He'll give a weary world release,
With sin a thing forever past.

He'll make anew a sin-cursed earth,
Put ev'ry harmful thing away.
No fear or pain, no dreaded dearth
Will in creation wend its way.

What rest and joy such life would mean--
It surely would be "life indeed,"
No rift to ever come between,
No more of selfishness or greed.

Since God has planned this future good
For ev'ry creature ent'ring life,
Tell out the tidings as you should,
So sorely needed in the strife.

For hearts are weary of unrest,
Of disappointment, discord, pain;
Of trying hard to do the best,
Yet proving in the end how vain.

So tell them of the future fair,
Pass on the message with delight;
That day of joy each soul shall share
When Christ has come to put things right.

The idea that one can find salvation only during this life time is an unscriptural myth.
After death comes the judgment, yes, but that judgment will result in kolasis aionion which means age-during corrective chastisement for those who need it.
Chapter Eleven

Kolasis aionion doesn't save. Only Jesus saves. But it will condition the rebellious sinner to sooner or later reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided by having them temporarily experience the consequences of their rebellion.

Unlike humans with their so very limited desire and ability to actually "reform" criminals in a reformatory, God, the "Judge," has no limit to the scope of both His DESIRE (born of the fact that He IS love personified not just loving), and His ABILITY to actually achieve reformation in the heart of the sinner because of what Christ accomplished for all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

Good morning Paul. Have a nice day!

At least both you and I believe in the eventual salvation of all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills, by what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

One might say that what both you and I believe is infinitely different from what eternal tormentors believe.

On previous posts you have stated how you believe that God will achieve this all-inclusive salvation based on the meaning of words.

For anyone who might be interested, my point of view about that is expounded here
The Savior of the World series by J

BTW Paul, do you know of anyone else who shares your point of view?
Just curious

Rogertutt, believing in universalism means nothing if I don't have love. You can preach it all day long but in the end it is LOVE that matters. Love is what causes me to embrace that which is contradictory to everyone else.

I'm the ONLY one I know of that believes about AIONIOS as I have stated in this thread numerous times that AIONIOS is a continuing point that shows us of something that last beyond the age boundary - that answers NOT to its end point. This again cannot be proven wrong from scripture while I have shown repeatedly how the meaning of "pertaining to the ages" is flawed.

Paul

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by trettep

Rogertutt, believing in universalism means nothing if I don't have love. You can preach it all day long but in the end it is LOVE that matters.

I think UR is what automatically springs from a loving heart, don't you think so Paul (trettep)? All-inclusive love that is.
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

Originally Posted by trettep

I'm the ONLY one I know of that believes about AIONIOS as I have stated in this thread numerous times that AIONIOS is a continuing point that shows us of something that last beyond the age boundary - that answers NOT to its end point. This again cannot be proven wrong from scripture while I have shown repeatedly how the meaning of "pertaining to the ages" is flawed. Paul

And here is why I disagree with that.
The Savior of the World series by J

Of course, each person who is interested enough will examine the evidences we have provided and will make up their own mind about it.
I'm cool with that

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

i think ur is what automatically springs from a loving heart, don't you think so paul (trettep)? All-inclusive love that is.
god is love: God is love! *the power of god's love;*love your enemies! Knowing the real jesus



and here is why i disagree with that.
the savior of the world series by j

of course, each person who is interested enough will examine the evidences we have provided and will make up their own mind about it.
I'm cool with that

Love conquers all!

[trettep]

Originally Posted by rodgertutt

I think UR is what automatically springs from a loving heart, don't you think so Paul (trettep)? All-inclusive love that is.
God is Love: God Is Love! *The Power of God's Love;*Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus



And here is why I disagree with that.
The Savior of the World series by J

Of course, each person who is interested enough will examine the evidences we have provided and will make up their own mind about it.
I'm cool with that

I do believe that universalism is shed abroad in our hearts by love but when we stop there and deny the logic and reason that God has given us to understand His word and embrace what is obvious contradiction and then go on to blast others that are embracing such contradiction then we have manufactured sin from our own heart. So for every preaching of universalism that you do while preaching contradiction only defames the message of God and defamation is Blasphemy for it holds cheap the message of Christ and His Salvation.

I suggest you investigate further this aionios doctrine of "pertaining to the ages" that I have exposed as being false.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted by lifesigns64

I do not read the Bible at this point to include living beings being burned forever, or kept locked up forever . . . .but if I am wrong, I believe God is just.

But lifesigns, how would that affect the definition of "justice" in your mind?
For that matter, I wonder how that would affect the definition of "love" in your mind?

The idea that God, (Who is Love in essence, not just a loving Individual), would sustain anyone alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever, and my inability to perceive that as "just" and "loving" is what caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. (I'm 70 years old now)

Reading articles similar to the one in the following link, helped me to cope with my problem, and helped me to gradually escape from my breakdown.
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

IMO, the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action on this earth is that anyone can believe that a "just" and "loving" God would let anyone suffer forever and not have a breakdown thinking about it.

[rodgertutt]

[quote=trettep;11180895] every preaching of universalism that you do while preaching contradiction only defames the message of God and defamation is Blasphemy for it holds cheap the message of Christ and His Salvation. quote]

I don't believe that I am "preaching contradiction," or "defaming the message of God," or blaspheming," or "cheapening the message of Christ and His salvation," and for anyone who is interested, here is commentary on why I don't believe those things.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

I realize that you have already said you don't believe the commentary in that link.
That's ok.
Everyone will choose to believe whatever is having the strongest influence upon their mind.

The end result is the same, and that's all I really care about.

Don't you find it significant that you can't get anyone else to think like you do?