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Ironmaw to Fundamentalist "If your goal is 'to grow in holiness with a correct heart' as you say,
then stop telling people that their loved ones who died while not being Christian are burning in hell or are going to be tortured for ever ... Stop spreading spiritual terror and start loving your enemies and praying that God will save all people."
1Timothy 2:1 and 4
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Quote:
You people make me laugh, sitting there at your computer, with stuffed bellys and criticizing the men who did their best, and gave their lives to get us these translations. It is absolutely sad.
How do you know what our circumstances are Fundy?
And what does physical hunger have to do with understanding truth?
First you say that legoman is "full of pride" simply because he is able to give reasons for the hope that is in him.
And now you make the blanket statement that we Universal Reconciliationists "sit at our computers with stuffed bellys."
Do you know what is "absolutely sad" to me?
That anyone can do as much laughing as Calvinist Fundamentalist does on his posts, or that they can even ever crack a smile for that matter, all the while believing that God created some of His creatures to sustain them alive in an inescapapble state of eternal suffering forever, presumably for the purpose of eternally demonstrating to everyone how "holy" He is.
Several Calvinists have told me that the fact that I can't believe like they do shows that I am not one of the elect like they are, and I therefore am going to have to suffer forever.
That was the kind of thinking that caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.
If I truly believed the Bible teaches that, I would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that.
Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.
Faith is not required in a god that loves you conditionally , it takes faith to be believe in a God that loves you unconditionally .
What I find impossible pcamps is to "have faith" in Fundamentalist's Calvinist god who, sure enough loves the elect "unconditionally," but also hates the non-elect "unconditionally" too, even though he brings them into this world "totally depraved" and they are unable to ever do anything about their fate, which is to suffer forever for being the way that their god made them.
God has an all-inclusive salvation project in motion, that by the time the consummation of the ages has been concluded, all fallen creatures will have been saved from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILLS. The Savior of the World series by J
Faith is not required in a god that loves you conditionally , it takes faith to be believe in a God that loves you unconditionally .
Amen. Luke 6:35
. . . and if you love those that love you, what merit have you? For even sinners do that . . . But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, not hoping for any return, and your reward shall be great, and you shall be children of the Most High, for He is kind towards the ungrateful and evil. Be merciful therefore, even as your Father is merciful.
I've missed your quiet, matter-of-fact, and powerful contributions.
It seems to me that were it not for childhood fear-imposing, brainwashing by parents and pastors and Sunday school teachers, most decent folk who enjoy treating others the way they themselves would like to be treated, would choose to live out their life as an agnostic, and hope for the best in the "after life", rather than embrace a "book" that tells them that God is going to let anyone suffer forever.
How one can come to believe in universal salvation
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Do you think God desire's to save all men? Do you think he will fail to achieve his desire? Do you think some will always reject God so that Christ won't be able to save them?
This is what scripture says:
1 Tim 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
So God desires to save all men. Does God achieve all He desires?
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
God's word achieve's what He desires. He does what He pleases and achieves His purposes. But will some people reject Him forever? No:
Isaiah 45:23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
All will eventually swear allegiance to God. This is talking about a willing oath of loyalty.
So there you have the basics:
1. God wants everyone saved
2. God is able to achieve what He desires
3. No one will reject him forever
See how one can come to a belief in universal salvation?
A little test about the word "ALL" that's found in Scripture.
If Truth is changed to not be all inclusive, when the context renders that it should be it then becomes error.
Reconsider the following Scriptures, without using any preconceived thoughts or forced interpretation upon them. This may be more difficult to do than first realized, because we all resort to an immediate interpretation of something based on our past understandings of the verse.
Like wolves among the sheep, carnally-minded men within the church system found it very effective to use the fear of an unending hell to control the masses that enter their religion.
Unfortunately this doctrine has remained at large in Christianity as a whole.
The Lord Jesus said, "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." - John 12:32
LOOK AT THE VERSES WITH THE WORD ALL
Savior of all, especially believers (1 Tim 4:9-11) (see why "especially" is inclusive, and cannot mean "only") Especially Those That Believe
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
Operating all in accord with counsel of His will (Eph 1:11)
In Adam all dying; in Christ shall all be vivified (1 Cor 15:21-23)
It says "in Christ shall all," not "all who are in Christ."
One offense for all mankind for condemnation... (Rom 5:18-19)
Lamb of God taking away sin of the world (John 1:29)
Correspondent ransom for all (1 Tim 2:6)
Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation
and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
Locks all in stubbornness; to be merciful to all (Rom 11:30-32)
All created ... to reconcile all (Col 1:16-20)
He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone (Heb 2:9)
That the world might be saved thru Him (John 3:17)
God was in Christ conciliating the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:18)
For our sins, not ours only but the whole world (1 John 2:2)
As a Christian I just preach the gospel and allow God to do the rest.
The gospel, according to the Calvinists, will only be effective if a hearer happens to be one of the elect.
According to the Calvinists, God brings the non-elect into being (through no fault of their own) for the purpose of sustaining them alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering forever, presumably to eternally demonstrate to everyone how "holy" He is.
Their favorite chapter seems to be Romans 9.
But they fail to realize the very ones Christ came to save are the "destroyed" ones?
“For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was apollumi (destroyed or lost - same word).” Lu. 19:10
Sooner or later God will refashion all vessels of dishonor into vessels of honor after He has finished using them as a vessel of dishonor, because no one ever leaves the hands of the Potter.
Many cannot see that God’s purposes are not completed in this current age, but worked out in successive ages. (Eph. 2:7) The message of God’s saving work through Christ is glorious, and it is not limited to this lifetime as the orthodox church would have us believe. It is not in God’s plan “to save as many as He can before this life ends” only to throw the rest of His precious creation in the dumper for all eternity.
Jesus did not pray for the world, but for those whom the Father gave Him (the disciples). (John 17) Those who are Calvinists will twist this prayer of Jesus to say that God only has intentions to save the elect, while the rest are reserved for never-ending punishment, but they make the same critical mistake that most of Christendom does in that they do not see that God’s purposes for mankind do not end with this life.
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Everything will be accomplished in GOD’S TIME, not ours. God’s purpose in this age is to bring a people to Himself (elect) in order to reach the non-elect in the ages to come. He is calling US in order to show forth His kindness to OTHERS in the ages to come. Once you see this truth, you will then understand why most people will never come to Christ in this age. This does not mean God has forsaken the many and given them up to suffer never-ending punishments. The mercy, love, and compassion of our God will never fail and the Good Shepherd will keep on seeking and saving until each and every last sheep (good and bad) is brought into the fold.
The following link is a great exposition on what the Bible teaches about this subject.
God, All in All! God, All in All!
The purpose (at least one of them) of Christ coming was to defeat and destroy death! Destroying death has many implications, not the least of which is that no one will die, and no one will be dead -> therefore all will be alive, so how can God leave some to just die? Will Christ be a failure in defeating death?
Death is the last enemy defeated. When this is achieved, there will be no more enemies. Period.
In the introduction to his article comparing annihilation with Christian Biblical Universalism, Gary Amirault, owner of the TENTMAKER website, wrote:
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous,
Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs:
1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ.
Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures.
Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
In the introduction to his article comparing annihilation with Christian Biblical Universalism, Gary Amirault, owner of the TENTMAKER website, wrote:
"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous,
Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs:
1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ.
Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures.
Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."
Ironmaw to Fundamentalist
"If your goal is 'to grow in holiness with a correct heart' as you say,
then stop telling people that their loved ones who died while not being Christian are burning in hell or are going to be tortured for ever ... Stop spreading spiritual terror and start loving your enemies and praying that God will save all people."
1Timothy 2:1 and 4
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Quote:
You people make me laugh, sitting there at your computer,
with stuffed bellys and criticizing the men who did their best,
and gave their lives to get us these translations. It is absolutely sad.
How do you know what our circumstances are Fundy?
And what does physical hunger have to do with understanding truth?
First you say that legoman is "full of pride" simply because he is able to give reasons for the hope that is in him.
And now you make the blanket statement that we Universal Reconciliationists "sit at our computers with stuffed bellys."
Moderator cut:
Orphaned/cross posting
That was the kind of thinking that caused my twelve year breakdown 1966-78. I'm 70 years old now.
If I truly believed the Bible teaches that, I would choose to live out my life as an agnostic, hoping to find out after I die that God is not really like that.
Fortunately for me I learned there are people like Ray Prinzing (my hero and mentor), and Ray's friend J. Preston Eby, and another friend of both of them, Canadian, George Hawtin, who see an infinitely different God in the Bible. The writings of all three of these men can be Googled up on the internet.
Last edited by june 7th; 10-13-2009 at 07:00 AM..
Reason: Continued cross posting is infractable, so I would encourage you to please stop doing it. Thanks.
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Having faith in god
