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This is pure specultion that has no basis whatsoever, and simply put, your interpretation is meaninlingless.
1. Folks, the spiritual body is a body...but it is not a human body as we have now, and will never be flesh....blood or bone for the LDS justamere10
2. This body can't be likened it to Jesus, because His body was not complete:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
3. Christ is the firstfruit....the apostles were the firstfruits. James 1:18
4. Paul describes the Spiritual body as something you “put on” (KJV), from the Greek “enduo” meaning “to sink into (clothing), put on, clothe one's self.”
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must PUT ON incorruption, and this mortal must PUT ON immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have PUT ON incorruption, and this mortal shall have PUT ON immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The picture being portrayed here is that the spirit “puts on” or wears the spiritual body. The spiritual body is like a garment, a vessel, a house, a temple, a tabernacle that covers and houses the spirit.
5. This is further supported from another passage written by Paul regarding the spiritual body
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our EARTHLY HOUSE of this TABERNACLE were DISSOLVED, we have a BUILDING of God, an HOUSE not made with hands, eternal IN THE HEAVENS.
2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be CLOTHED UPON with our HOUSE which is FROM HEAVEN:
2 Cor 5:3 If so be that being CLOTHED we shall not be found naked.
2 Cor 5:4 For we that are in this TABERNACLE do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
6. The earthly body as well as the heavenly body is compared to a house and tabernacle that ‘clothes’ (enduo) the spirit.
You know Micks, you could be a bit more respectful of the beliefs of others. You come across as if everything I write has no substance but the way you interpret scripture is the absolute truth. Hmmm, where have I encountered that attitude before...
1. I agree, the spirit body is not a human (meaning mortal) body and will never be corruptible flesh. So, what's your point?
2. So what you're saying then is that the body of Jesus was "not complete" meaning not perfect? I kind of thought he was perfect in everything... Mary was the first person on this planet to see a resurrected being. At that time Jesus had not yet ascended to the celestial world where God the Father dwells. I don't know what point you are trying to make.
3. "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." James 1: 18
Yes, the word "firstfruits" is in that sentence but I don't see anything in it that refers to apostles. James is certainly not writing an epistle to admonish and teach the apostles!
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming." 1 Corinthians 15: 20,23
Note that pesky little "s" in "firstfruits" when it refers to Christ? With respect for your right to believe as you will, your speculative intepretation of scripture in this case at least is not substantiated within the context of additional verses.
4. It is my opinion that the two verses from 1 Corinthians that you quote refer to the resurrection at which time the physical body becomes ("puts on") incorruptible and immortal. I see nothing to support your notion (as I understand what you wrote) that man has three bodies, a physical body, a spirit body, and as you seem to see it, a "spiritual body" that somehow comes between the other two sort of like an onion skin?? I see the physical body as being the tabernacle of the spirit body during the mortal sojourn. I do not believe that there is a separate third body in our makeup.
5. I see nothing in the 4 verses of 2 Corinthians that supports your belief (if I understand you correctly) that we have three bodies.
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." 2 Corinthians 5: 1-4
Verse 1 as I see it means that if our physical body was dissolved (as happens at death) we'd still have the spirit body that came from God.
Verse 2 as I see it means that we who earnestly seek God desire our awareness to be centered in the spirit body because that part of our being came from God.
Verse 3 as I see it could mean a number of things, including the yearning ("groan/earnestly desiring") of the spirit body after death to be reunited with the physical tabernacle, which will happen at the resurrection.
Verse 4 as I see it means the yearning for resurrection/immortality.
All arbitrary interpretations to be sure, but in my opinion at least as valid as yours.
6. It is my opinion that you have not found valid support for your belief that man has three bodies. The context within the Bible as a whole as I understand it leads me to conclude that mortal man is dual, that the physical body made by humans is, during mortal life, the tabernacle of the spirit body made by God the Father in His own image and likeness.
Last edited by justamere10; 09-24-2009 at 08:03 PM..
You know Micks, you could be a bit more respectful of the beliefs of others. You come across as if everything I write has no substance but the way you interpret scripture is the absolute truth. Hmmm, where have I encountered that attitude before....
"You come across as if everything I write has no substance but the way you interpret scripture is the absolute truth. Hmmm, where have I encountered that attitude before..."
How about starting with yourself......sound familiar?
I apologize if I was out of line. However, your interpretation:
Quote:
It's the combination of flesh AND blood that doesn't work, that's still mortal.
The above, I find without scriptural support. I am sorry if that hurts your feelings, it isn't meant to.
This is thinking outside of scripture, not within it.
1. It's not so much a struggle for me as I know what I believe. The problem is that well-meaning people (such as yourself) take verses about our life while alive and apply them to after death. There are two kinds of death, right? Dead in sin yet still physically alive, and dead or without the breath of life (spirit).
2. Isa 59:10 Like the blind we grope along the wall, feeling our way like men without eyes. At midday we stumble as if it were twilight; among the strong, we are like the dead.
The dead apparently don't need eyes.
3. Lam. 3:6 He has made me dwell in darkness like those long dead.
To be dead is to dwell in darkness.
4. Matt: 22:31-
But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
The dead apparently have no God.
5. See the question was asked whose wife will she be in heaven... Jesus replies that they don't understand. Marriage is a living, physical thing. Without a physical body there is no need for marriage. Therefore there is no reason to have a physical body after death.
6. You commented about Jesus' physical body being gone from the tomb. Let me ask you something: Where is Moses' body?
The location of the body of Moses is said to have been hidden so that his body and sepulcher were not worshiped as an idol.
7. I don't agree with you that our bodies are preserved. The body is a temple of the Holy Spirit yet the physical temple that housed the Holy Spirit was destroyed to bring God's people to him spiritually. Thus it is natural that our physical bodies as a temple, at death, are destroyed and a spiritual body is it's replacement.
8. Now I know you are saying it will be a "new" body in that it can do things ours now cannot but there is no scriptural proof that this is true. If Jesus brought Lazarus back from the dead did he stay alive for all eternity? Is he alive now? Or did he at some point die again? Jesus did not die again but is said to be living today. Obviously not on this earth in physical form therefore one can say that the resurrection of Lazarus is completely different from the resurrection of Christ.
IMO
1. It is my understanding that when Adam and Eve fell because they partook of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which God had commanded them not to do, they became subject to two kinds of death:
a) Spiritual death. Separation from God the Father who no longer visited and walked and talked with them as He had previously done in the Garden of Eden from which they were evicted for their sin.
b) Physical death. Although it was hundreds of years later, the seeds of death were planted in their mortal bodies and eventually they succumbed to the death of the physical body.
2. "We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men." Isaiah 59: 10
I always hesitate to pretend that I can intepret Isaiah. But it seems obvious that in this chapter he is comparing the condition of fallen man to God. I would not read into it what you have with your logical analysis.
3. "He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old." Lamantations 3: 6
I suppose in Old Testament times especially, that the physical bodies of those who had died with the resurrection yet far distant could be considered to be in darkness. But it's more likely that Jeremiah is just feeling down about some very sad times in the history of Judah when their enemies had prevailed. Again I would not read into it what you have.
4. Oops! I would read that ("He is not the God of the dead but of the living") as meaning that to God there is no dead, only living. Spirit bodies are always alive and visible to Him. He is God the Father because the spirits made in His own image and likeness are literally His own children.
5. With the assistance of extrabiblical scripture I understand that to mean that marriage is an earthly institution. People can and do get married on earth but cannot get married in heaven. (That is mitigated by modern day temples where the apostolic sealing power can be exercised by proxy for those who are dead. Mormons are fond of the expression: "Families can be together forever.")
We don't have a "physical" body after death in the sense of the type of body we have prior to our death. Resurrected bodies are tangible, but they are superhuman not limited physical as they were when mortal.
6. Moses, along with Elias and Elijah, appeared as either resurrected or translated beings in the Kirtland, Ohio LDS temple on April 3, 1836. So if Moses was resurrected he most likely normally makes his abode in the celestial world where Jesus and Heavenly Father live. And if he is translated he most likely remains on earth where he can appear or disappear to human eyes at will, and probably walks and talks to people who know not who or what he is, as do other translated beings.
7. I'm having a difficult time following you, perhaps you too believe that man is made of three bodies, not two? My understanding is that mortal man consists of a physical body that is the tabernacle/temple of the spirit body come from God that integrates the physical's myriad intelligent parts and allows it to have movement, similar to a hand inside a glove. The "Holy Spirit" is the third member of the Godhood. Because the Holy Spirit (sometimes called Holy Ghost) does not yet have a physical body, his presence can be felt within many people at once, similar to the warmth of the sun.
Our physical bodies at death do disintegrate and continue to decay until the resurrection. The spirit body that occupied it (complete with memories, knowledge gained while on earth, character developed, etc.) heads to the world of spirits that surrounds this planet until the resurrection. In the Paradise spirit world our spirits rest from the brutal workout we get on earth, interact with each other, learn and progress if we choose, and enjoy being in an environment similar perhaps to the Garden of Eden. Compared to earth life, Paradise is heaven. But it's only temporary, if you lived righteously, you ain't seen nothin yet! We can be heirs of all that Father has...
8. The raising of Lazarus from the dead when he had been dead for three days was not a resurrection. Nobody was resurrected until after Jesus was. It was a miracle the Lord did possibly as a sign to demonstrate that he had power over earthly things and thus, as witnesses hopefully would conclude, had also power to forgive sins. Unless he was translated, it is certain that Lazarus died again.
I guess the concept of resurrection is as difficult for some to understand today as it was in ancient times...
Last edited by justamere10; 09-24-2009 at 10:31 PM..
justmere10,
The above, I find without scriptural support... This is thinking outside of scripture, not within it.
I will need to reach to a larger context of scripture than is contained in the few documents scholars placed into the bible. I realize that doing so is difficult for those who have been taught that the bible is all we're ever going to get from a loving unchanging God who interacted with His children on earth anciently but according to scholars cannot or will not do so in our time.
"There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." D&C 129: 1-2
"Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. Moreover, Ezekiel, who was shown in vision the great valley of dry bones, which were to be clothed upon with flesh, to come forth again in the resurrection of the dead, living souls;" D&C 138: 17,43
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." D&C 130: 22
1. It is my understanding that when Adam and Eve fell because they partook of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which God had commanded them not to do, they became subject to two kinds of death:
a) Spiritual death. Separation from God the Father who no longer visited and walked and talked with them as He had previously done in the Garden of Eden from which they were evicted for their sin.
b) Physical death. Although it was hundreds of years later, the seeds of death were planted in their mortal bodies and eventually they succumbed to the death of the physical body.
I agree with the two types of death. However I take the story of adam and eve very lightly. I don't believe for instance that God literally walked among them. No man has seen God. I believe he treated them as sons. Children often get in trouble and we try to steer them the right way... the adam and eve story.
Obviously they could have believed the devil when he told them they would not die from the fruit because they lived almost 1000 years. Did they know they would die? not sure. Perhaps that was part of the knowledge. The part about them covering themselves is all about the spiritual. For it is the law that shows someone they are sinful. So in that way the physical death can be quickened by sin and the spiritual death can be quickened through sin. Thus both deaths are affected by sin.
John 8:52
At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.
Death's sting is sin.
Quote:
2. "We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men." Isaiah 59: 10
I always hesitate to pretend that I can intepret Isaiah. But it seems obvious that in this chapter he is comparing the condition of fallen man to God. I would not read into it what you have with your logical analysis.
3. "He hath set me in dark places, as they that be dead of old." Lamantations 3: 6
I suppose in Old Testament times especially, that the physical bodies of those who had died with the resurrection yet far distant could be considered to be in darkness. But it's more likely that Jeremiah is just feeling down about some very sad times in the history of Judah when their enemies had prevailed. Again I would not read into it what you have.
Just trying to show you that there are places where death and the dead are spoken about allegorically. The dead are in darkness, those who walk in sin are in darkness, as if they are dead. Christ says if you believe in him you will not die. Did he mean #1 or #2?
Quote:
4. Oops! I would read that ("He is not the God of the dead but of the living") as meaning that to God there is no dead, only living. Spirit bodies are always alive and visible to Him. He is God the Father because the spirits made in His own image and likeness are literally His own children.
The only problem with that is that we die. even in resurrection we died. To God there is no spiritual death? or physical death? Because we will all die.. the bible doesn't elaborate on the afterlife because God is the God of the living... it is for us that are living that God is concerned about. Those that are dead have lived their life. We have no way of knowing what will happen exactly so God deals with the living.
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7. I'm having a difficult time following you, perhaps you too believe that man is made of three bodies, not two? My understanding is that mortal man consists of a physical body that is the tabernacle/temple of the spirit body come from God that integrates the physical's myriad intelligent parts and allows it to have movement, similar to a hand inside a glove. The "Holy Spirit" is the third member of the Godhood. Because the Holy Spirit (sometimes called Holy Ghost) does not yet have a physical body, his presence can be felt within many people at once, similar to the warmth of the sun.
I skipped some of your points there because I am not LDS so I can't really say I have any knowledge to add to that or take from it. I will have to study up on your beliefs.
But as far as #7.. I have never heard anyone say there would be two bodies let alone 3. I mean I guess I see what you mean. Physical body and spiritual body would be two... not sure what the 3rd one would be.
I believe we die and are brought into the presence of God. That's all I know for sure. I do know that through the Holy Spirit we can live life to the fullest the way God intended right here and now while living. I don't believe in the trinity for God nor humans. There is a spirit and a body and that creates a living soul. Without the spirit there is no living soul. Without the body there is no living soul. So when you die... you die and your spirit is the only thing let into "heaven" as you might call it.
Quote:
Our physical bodies at death do disintegrate and continue to decay until the resurrection. The spirit body that occupied it (complete with memories, knowledge gained while on earth, character developed, etc.) heads to the world of spirits that surrounds this planet until the resurrection. In the Paradise spirit world our spirits rest from the brutal workout we get on earth, interact with each other, learn and progress if we choose, and enjoy being in an environment similar perhaps to the Garden of Eden. Compared to earth life, Paradise is heaven. But it's only temporary, if you lived righteously, you ain't seen nothin yet! We can be heirs of all that Father has...
8. The raising of Lazarus from the dead when he had been dead for three days was not a resurrection. Nobody was resurrected until after Jesus was. It was a miracle the Lord did possibly as a sign to demonstrate that he had power over earthly things and thus, as witnesses hopefully would conclude, had also power to forgive sins. Unless he was translated, it is certain that Lazarus died again.
I guess the concept of resurrection is as difficult for some to understand today as it was in ancient times...
I agree that the raising of Lazarus was not a resurrection but if it happened within three days and that is how you base your summation than you have to admit that it was within three days so that Christ's body cannot have been a resurrection but only a recuscitation. Yeah... I don't do the whole spirit world stuff. No proof of that unless you've talked with a spirit lately (maybe I shouldn't have said that).
The concept seems to be difficult. In my mind it seems muddy but then it is speculating on something we have never seen and as such that is how it goes! Thanks for the discussion tho. Very interesting!
Wow . . . so many pages . . . so much writing about something so ambiguous and inscrutable that has little bearing on our lives in the here and now. We are a funny species.
Wow . . . so many pages . . . so much writing about something so ambiguous and inscrutable that has little bearing on our lives in the here and now. We are a funny species.
Wow . . . so many pages . . . so much writing about something so ambiguous and inscrutable that has little bearing on our lives in the here and now. We are a funny species.
And here I thought all I'd have to do was write one or two messages and everybody would catch on!
But seriously, I think that believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is absolutely crucial to understanding his mission and bearing testimony of him to non-Christians and doubting Christians alike.
If you cannot accept and bear firm testimony because the Holy Spirit has revealed that to you (or you cannot accept it on faith) that Jesus Christ was literally resurrected, his physical body and spirit body permanently melded into one tangible body with superhuman powers, then in my opinion you may as well just go along with atheists and others who say it's all a myth or someone removed his body from the tomb so it would appear to be a convincing tale, or he never really died, or whatever that denies his divinity and his atonement for all mankind.
I bear you my personal testimony because God has confirmed that to me in an undeniable manner that JESUS CHRIST DIED AND WAS RESURRECTED THREE DAYS LATER!
Because of his atonement and resurrection, everyone who has ever lived on this earth and ever will will eventually become immortal resurrected beings themselves, he gives that to us FREE. Having a resurrected body will move us closer to being grown up and much more like our Heavenly Parent in whose image and likeness we were made.
Because of his atonement and resurrection, it is possible for everyone who has ever lived on this earth and ever will, even though all have sinned and all are unprofitable servants, to potentially receive eternal life and exaltation, to KNOW God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent, to live forever with our Heavenly Father and billions of other exalted beings in the highest of heavens.
Those things I personally know to be true, having found out for myself with much fasting and sincere and humble prayer, as can any of God's children who do that and also do their best to keep God's commandments and to love and serve others.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
I agree with the two types of death. However I take the story of adam and eve very lightly. I don't believe for instance that God literally walked among them. No man has seen God. I believe he treated them as sons. Children often get in trouble and we try to steer them the right way... the adam and eve story.
Oh no, you think Adam and Eve are "just a story"? If there never was a beginning how could anything else fit in? No Cain, no Abel, no Abraham, no Moses, no Jews, no Bible, no Jesus Christ?
"And the first man of all men have I called Adam which is many." Moses 1: 34
If you accept the Bible as scripture then you must accept that prior to the fall God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden:
"And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?" Genesis 3: 8-9
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But it seems obvious that in this chapter he is comparing the condition of fallen man to God. I would not read into it what you have with your logical analysis. 
Jesus Christ WAS Resurrected!
