Everlasting is Eternal is Forever... (baptism, salvation, soul, grace)
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..O.k. Phaze, I'm glad! I'll begin with posting your last post to me, and we will begin from there. I'll title it: "By this, we know love..."
Looking forward to our journey in to the heart of God together......
...say a prayer Phaze, before we begin, and I'll agree with you, that God will open the eyes of our heart to His truth and His will for our lives...Amen.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall *perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
* perish means to fully destroy.
Once a soul is thrown into the lake of fire it cannot get out? Why? It shall burn till it's consumed i.e turned to ashes. Now this 'act' has a beginning and an end. And it is also final.
God is always fair even to/with His enemies. They will be consumed, consumed away, and turned to ashes and be gone....never to be in God's presence.
And as to when the Word speaks of eternal life. It's referring to the quality of life, not the quantity/length.
Now you can argue all you want that "I" am wrong, but I suggest you don't argue with what God has stated.
I know you are very sincere, Verna, but by trying to say God makes people burn and suffer with out end you are making God out to be some kind of monster that takes joy in seeing people burn like bacon without their suffering ever ending.
When in truth, it grieves Him to have to destroy them; but He will.
I agree with you.
Spiritual beings whether men or angels are not created immortal
The Lord God did not create any living beings to be immortal whether the angels or men. It is stated in the scripture (1 Timothy 6:13) that only God is immortal.
1 Timothy 6:13 - I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.
Eternal life or immortality for created spiritual being is define in the scriptures as unlimited stages of extended life.
In Revelation 22:2, we are shown that the Tree of Life yielded her fruit every month. Why is this Tree there? Why is it yielding it's fruit month after month?
Revelation 22: 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
It is there because believers must partake of the fruit month after month after month and forever and ever. It symbolise the sustaining power of Lord God extending the believer's spiritual life over one time period to another time period to another time period and throughout eternity. This is what the Lord Jesus meant by eternal life.
That is why believers have to eat the Bread of Life (Christ body) and drink His blood. It is similarly refer to Revelation 2:7 as eating from the tree of life and drinking from the Water of Life in Revelation 22:17. The sustaining power of God (Bread of Life/Tree of life) nourishes the spiritual body and keeps it alive. The Holy Spirit (Blood of Christ/Water of life) nourishes the spirit of man to keep it alive. Both are needed to keep the spiritual body and spirit of believers alive throughout eternity.
John 6:53 - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
These are given free to the believers only. These supplies will not run out because it is promised by the faithfulness of God's word and because the Lord God is immortal.
Revelation 21: 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Therefore any created being whether angel or man can and will die if they do not partake of the sustaining power of God (Tree of Life) and of the power of the Holy Spirit (Water of Life). Notice where these two POWERS are located - at The Throne of God and The Lamb (Revelation 22:1)
Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
The sinner can and will die.
The sinner will die in a similar way that Christ died on the cross. Just as Christ was lifted up in public display and put to shame, the sinner will be put on public display when being punished. The believers will see it.(Isaiah 66.24). The angels and the Lamb (Lord Jesus) will also see it. (Revelation 14:10)
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Take note of how the Lord God treated Christ as if He was sin when Christ was carrying believers' sin (even though the Lord Jesus was sinless). Thus if the unbeliever does not believe that Lord Jesus died in his place, the unbeliever will have to take his own place as an offering for sin.
Thus it will pleased the Lord to bruise the sinner, and to put the sinner to grief: when God shall make the sinner's soul an offering for sin. The sinner will be wounded for his own transgressions, the sinner will be bruised for his own iniquities.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
Until finally, just as the Lord God forsake Christ on the cross, the Lord God will also forsake the sinner. It means the Lord God totally withdrews Himself and His sustaining power from the sinner. Thus the sinner's body and spirit will not be held together by God's power instituted during creation. The sinner will die (Romans 6:23) for the wages of sin is death and there will not be any trace of the sinner.
An abrupt end of the sinner's life (shedding of blood) is necessary in order for the Lord God to forgive his sins. (Hebrews 9:22) This is the second death.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
According to scripture(Isaiah 11:4) , it is the Lord Jesus who will slay(kill) the wicked(sinner). He is both the Judge and the Executioner.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
The scripture is very clear. The Lord Jesus will slay the wicked. Thus the sinner will die after God's wrath is appeased. There will not be eternal torment.
Verna, Latte, Mike555, Fundy, anyone else, why do you believe your bible is correct and a different version of the bible is incorrect?
The concordant literal is called a "literal" translation because they translate words matching closely with exact meanings from the greek/hebrew. Here is how they translated Matt 25:41 and Matt 25:46 for example:
Matt 25:41 "Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers.
Matt 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian
This is a more literal translation: aionios is translated exactly as "eonian", which means "pertaining to eons". So why should I believe this is talking about a literal forever of "eternal" fire and "eternal" punishment, when this other perfectly good bible says its really "eonian" fire and "eonian" chastening? Furthermore why do you believe you will get "eternal" life when it only says you will receive "eonian" life?
Perhaps you are confusing immortality with "eternal" life. In fact they are different. "eternal" (eonian) life is simply knowing God (John 17:3). But all will be made immortal and thus live forever as 1 Cor 15 shows.
Why not look at other bibles and determine through study which meaning is correct? Why are you so stuck in your tradition that you willingly reject the plain truth? There is one side rejecting the plain truth and it is those who believe in Eternal Torment.
My teaching comes from those who were experts in the original Hebrew and Greek languages and who taught from those languages. They did not use a Bible translation in their studies. And they taught from the original lanquages that eternal condemnation is accurate theology. I am speaking of men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary which required extensive training in the original languages, and Robert B. Thieme JR., who was pastor of Berachah Church for over 50 years and was one of the leading theologians of the twentieth century.
And what an idiotic thing to say that the believer doesn't have eternal, or if you must, 'everlasting' life. The resurrected body will be immortal. The human soul is immortal from the moment that God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby. And at the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own ETERNAL LIFE. Furthermore, the Church age believer is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and so we share Christs eternal life.
Much of what is being taught today and being passed off as doctrinal teaching is in fact Satanically inspired. And that also includes the teaching that says that 'aion' proves that there is no eternal punishment for the unbeliever. That is straight from the mouth of Satan.
My teaching comes from those who were experts in the original Hebrew and Greek languages and who taught from those languages. They did not use a Bible translation in their studies. And they taught from the original lanquages that eternal condemnation is accurate theology. I am speaking of men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary which required extensive training in the original languages, and Robert B. Thieme JR., who was pastor of Berachah Church for over 50 years and was one of the leading theologians of the twentieth century.
And what an idiotic thing to say that the believer doesn't have eternal, or if you must, 'everlasting' life. The resurrected body will be immortal. The human soul is immortal from the moment that God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby. And at the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own ETERNAL LIFE. Furthermore, the Church age believer is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and so we share Christs eternal life.
Much of what is being taught today and being passed off as doctrinal teaching is in fact Satanically inspired. And that also includes the teaching that says that 'aion' proves that there is no eternal punishment for the unbeliever. That is straight from the mouth of Satan.
Mike, what you are passing off as "fact" above is in fact quite untrue.
Firstly, Matt 25:46 is not speaking of eternal life. It is speaking of eonian life. In English, we might call immortality and eternal life the same thing, in scripture they are quite different and separate - scripture never speaks of eternal life, only eonian life.
Second, you say: The human soul is immortal from the moment that God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby.
This is a complete falsehood and contradicts several scriptures:
Eze 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die.
1 Tim 6:15 —God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
Souls are not immortal because they can die. Only God is immortal right now.
Furthermore we see in 1 Cor 15 that all are mortal until the resurrection, when mortality will put on immortality.
I would check where you are getting your beliefs from because its not from the bible.
My teaching comes from those who were experts in the original Hebrew and Greek languages and who taught from those languages. They did not use a Bible translation in their studies. And they taught from the original lanquages that eternal condemnation is accurate theology. I am speaking of men such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary which required extensive training in the original languages, and Robert B. Thieme JR., who was pastor of Berachah Church for over 50 years and was one of the leading theologians of the twentieth century.
And what an idiotic thing to say that the believer doesn't have eternal, or if you must, 'everlasting' life. The resurrected body will be immortal. The human soul is immortal from the moment that God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby. And at the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, God the Holy Spirit creates a human spirit to which God the Father imputes His very own ETERNAL LIFE. Furthermore, the Church age believer is entered into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit and so we share Christs eternal life.
Much of what is being taught today and being passed off as doctrinal teaching is in fact Satanically inspired. And that also includes the teaching that says that 'aion' proves that there is no eternal punishment for the unbeliever. That is straight from the mouth of Satan.
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The human soul is immortal from the moment that *God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby.
*I do agree God made all souls and all souls belong to God.
However, IF all the souls He created are immortal (can't die) then how do you explain this verse:
Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroybothsoul and body in hell.
This passage clearly tells us not to fear 'man' who can kill only our body, but to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. This verse shows all souls are made mortal (liable to die).
If God had created all souls to never die. How can they perish in the lake of fire? Or in other words die?
Last edited by mshipmate; 09-29-2009 at 01:36 PM..
Reason: spelling
My teaching comes from those who were experts in the original Hebrew and Greek languages and who taught from those languages. They did not use a Bible translation in their studies. And they taught from the original lanquages that eternal condemnation is accurate theology.
however they were no native Greek speakers, all who translated the bible were able to speak Greek, yet some of them believe in hell, some in annihilation and some in universalism.
I have to disagree based on my own life. I cannot speak for yours. We are trained in religion to make spiritual judgments based upon observation more than the understanding of the spirit. This is a false way to determine anything. If a person knows thier own life, then they understand when others think wrongly based upon what they see. While I know that I was judged based on something I once did no one could see the war that raged within. When we are honest about sitting and crying out, yet still being disobedient, the logic of eternal damnation as a literal reality rather than a perception of our circumstance doesn;t hold up unless we can understand that based on that, we have no real assurance.
Unfortunatly, people do live by that logic, but it simply shows that mans logic is not greater than Gods promises.
I have repeatedly said we have a will and that it is free to choose. The issue is applying it correctly to scripture which most do not. Most extract the term and use the term apart from it's scriptural application and that is where confusion comes from.
You cannot make a proper argument that our will is completely independant of God while reading the story of the potter and the clay, it is impossible to do so and not contradict.
The whole point is that living clay (us) and actual potters clay naturally
resist being formed, it must be worked with precision. But if your a master potter it matter not that the clay resists.
The story in scripture is not all there is to it. You can throw yourself around and fall in a great lump of misery but the master potter knows what he will have to do in order to make sure you learn righteousness.
It is the story that builds the case in scripture, not my opinion that all creation has a relationship with the father, our free will is about what the father has to do to form us, not us choosing to tell God how it is done.
What I know is the aspect of God that is not about me, my choices have not determined anything but whether I suffered more or less in my walk than perhaps I needed to.
The more we try to think our choice is why God loves us the further we get from scripture.
{{{{God loves us first and that is an action that causes us to love him.
Amen to this }}}}
The only thing observation can prove is that we each come at a different time.
I should have said, "No matter what you have heard... When Scripture declares something to be eternal...everlasting and forever, depending upon the verse!, it very well COULD mean EVERLASTING...ETERNAL...FOREVER!!"...so don't let anyone tell you that everlasting, eternal, and forever absolutely DOES NOT mean everlasting, eternal and forever!
There......!
The fact is that, as legoman has demonstrated, the translations are undependable.
We know for a fact hat aion means age, because not only does it have a plural version, but in various places in the new testament the word aion cannot be possibly translated as eternal ...
Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world(aion), neither in the world(aion) to come.
Is there an eternity to come? is this eternity now?
Mat 13:22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world(aion), and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
This care of this eternity?
If Jesus was speaking Greek(most likely he was speaking Aramaic, and the original gospels may we have been in Aramaic also) then he personally used the word in such a way it could not possibly mean eternal on multiple occasions...
Everyplace in the new testament where aion is translated fallaciously as forever or everlasting or eternal it could be translated as age or ages without being irrational, that is not the case if you try to translate the word as eternity or ever or everlasting in the places it is translated as world or age, then the scripture would become irrational.
What about the fact when we find "for ever and ever" in the new testament it is the plural form of aion so it should be tranlated as "for evers and evers" if you want to translate it as ever, and that certainly doesn't make any sense does it?
There is plenty of evidence to prove aion and its adjective should be translated as age or eon.
The Latin equivalent of Aion is seculorum, not aeternum. Such is the way that Origen Used the word aion and its adjective time and time again in his writings, and he was a native Koine Greek speaking person.
Ill trust him over the KJV translators and Strongs and the other translations which derive from them any day of the week, just like ill trust the vast majority of Christians in the first 6 centuries who held the belief of UR and not the Christians of the last 300 years concerning the true meaning of the gospels and the salvation of all.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-29-2009 at 02:57 PM..
Mike, what you are passing off as "fact" above is in fact quite untrue.
Firstly, Matt 25:46 is not speaking of eternal life. It is speaking of eonian life. In English, we might call immortality and eternal life the same thing, in scripture they are quite different and separate - scripture never speaks of eternal life, only eonian life.
Second, you say: The human soul is immortal from the moment that God creates it and imputes it to the body of every newborn baby.
This is a complete falsehood and contradicts several scriptures:
Eze 18:4 The soul who sins is the one who will die.
1 Tim 6:15 —God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
Souls are not immortal because they can die. Only God is immortal right now.
There are seven kinds of death taught in the Bible. One of them is temporal death. It refers to the believer who has committed a sin and is therefore out of fellowship. He is no longer under the control of the Holy Spirit but rather is under the control of the old sin nature. Therefore, he is said to be dead. The remedy is the principle of 1 John 1:9. Name the sin to God and you are restored to fellowship. It has nothing to do with the soul becoming non-existant. (Luke 15:24,32; Romans 8:6-13; Eph. 5:14; 1 Tim.5:6;Jams 1:15; Rev.3:1)
Rom. 8:6-13 ''For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace'' You can read the rest of it yourself.
James 1:15 ''Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.''The remedy is 1 John 1:9.
The soul does not die. It goes into a carnal condition when you sin. That is what the Bible means when it says the soul shall die. That is what Eze. 18:4 is referring to. The soul is immortal.
If you want to know about the other six types of death taught in the Bible, it is in one of my other posts somewhere. Look it up.
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Furthermore we see in 1 Cor 15 that all are mortal until the resurrection, when mortality will put on immortality.
1 Tim. 6:15 is referring to the fact that at the moment only Christ has been physically resurrected. Christ is, in His resurrected physical glorifed body seated at the right hand of God the Father. (Dwelling in unapproachable light)
1 Cor. 15 is talking about the body. Not the soul. The body is resurrected to immortality. The soul is immortal from birth.
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I would check where you are getting your beliefs from because its not from the bible.
As I have shown, what I am saying is from the Bible. I know what I am talking about.
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