Are Babies Who Have Not Been Saved Comdemned To Hell? (evolution, Catholic)
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Very good! You answered without quoting verses. However;
1. How do you know Jesus is the Word of God? Is it because men of the 1st century wrote in the Gospels about His life and because you "choose to interpret them intelligently and knowledgeably"? So anyone who does not agree with your interpretation is unintelligent and stupid? WOW! What a God complex you have.
2. If the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God? How does one determine what parts of the Bible are inspirations and what are not?
If you are able to determine that then you are the wisest person who has ever lived. Either all of it is inspired or you can not be 100% certain that any of it is inspired. One says such and such verse or passage is inspired but another says "I don't believe that". So who is right?
These questions reveal that you do NOT actually believe that Jesus instituted the New Covenant. If you did you would know that Christ abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts in agape love. The answers to who is right are determined by the application of the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God). IF something is inconsistent with or contradicts the Spirit of agape love, it can NOT be from God or Jesus, It is the work of the "precepts and doctrines of men." We check this against what we sincerely feel in our hearts applying agape love, NOT what dogma of men tells us we SHOULD feel. THAT is how we know who is right.
Quote:
BTW you did not address my question concerning Jesus' belief concerning Noah having actually existed. If the story of Noah is a myth, as you believe, then Jesus is an idiot and you can not be 100% certain about anything He taught. Neither can you be 100% certain about any of the "inspirations" that teach about Him. Either Noah did exist or Jesus is an idiot for believing that a myth was historical fact. You can not have it both ways.
Wrong. Jesus can use the example of Noah in the fable of the flood to reinforce spiritual principles without believing it is historical fact. We often do the same today with things like Aesop's fables and other well-known narratives that those we want to explain things to are familiar with. Using them does NOT require believing them to be historical fact.
These questions reveal that you do NOT actually believe that Jesus instituted the New Covenant.
Oh but I do!
Interesting that you mention the New Covenant. This implies that there was a former covenant now called the Old Covenant. I'd like to explore this branch of our discussion by asking, according to your understanding: Who were the parties to that covenant? How did the Old Covenant come to be i.e. who instituted it? What were the stipulations i.e. what did the two parties agree to do?
I realize these questions may seem simplistic but in my mind they are basic to understanding the need for the New Covenant. They also may lead to further questions concerning the nature of the Old Covenant.
General rule....in my opinion is this, when trying to interpret the bible, is to see the works of God in the affairs of mankind verses the works of mankind in it's own affairs.
In the case of the "Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Old Covenant establishes Gods requirements for the redemption of the soul of mankind. "Degree to sin".
New Covenant establishes Gods work in redemption of mankind, by complying to the letter of the law, the terms of the Old Covenant.
In concert with Gods redemptive work, He enlists the help of the Jewish nation as co-creators of the New Covenant.
Evident by Jesus' words on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
Forget all the horrors of mankind's actions and focus on the works of God. That is where one finds understanding.
These questions reveal that you do NOT actually believe that Jesus instituted the New Covenant. If you did you would know that Christ abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us to the truth God has "written in our hearts in agape love. The answers to who is right are determined by the application of the Spirit of agape love (Who IS God). IF something is inconsistent with or contradicts the Spirit of agape love, it can NOT be from God or Jesus, It is the work of the "precepts and doctrines of men." We check this against what we sincerely feel in our hearts applying agape love, NOT what dogma of men tells us we SHOULD feel. THAT is how we know who is right.
Wrong. Jesus can use the example of Noah in the fable of the flood to reinforce spiritual principles without believing it is historical fact. We often do the same today with things like Aesop's fables and other well-known narratives that those we want to explain things to are familiar with. Using them does NOT require believing them to be historical fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos
Oh but I do!
Interesting that you mention the New Covenant. This implies that there was a former covenant now called the Old Covenant. I'd like to explore this branch of our discussion by asking, according to your understanding: Who were the parties to that covenant? How did the Old Covenant come to be i.e. who instituted it? What were the stipulations i.e. what did the two parties agree to do?
I realize these questions may seem simplistic but in my mind they are basic to understanding the need for the New Covenant. They also may lead to further questions concerning the nature of the Old Covenant.
Your friendly Fundi
I will not debate you about the self-congratulatory Jewish narrative and glorification of their relationship with God. I will keep it more generic. The parties have always been the entire species Homo sapiens Homo sapiens and God. Our species initially was adulterated by inbreeding and interbreeding with lesser species producing aberrations and abominations. The species was culled by a flood, city-wide destructions, wars, and various genocides and interbreeding with only virgin females, etc.. In any case, the point is a particular progenitor displayed special ability for self-control of his selfish desires and was promised his seed would become dominant. That seed led to the birth of Jesus. But as I explained elsewhere:
Everything prior to Jesus was Prologue. Our barbaric and savage species had to evolve and then mature enough to make possible the self-control of our baser urges through agape love for all life. The beginning of our species' wisdom was the achievement of self-control using obedience and the fear of God - the Schoolmaster stage. The ability for self-control is not enough. It has to be applied in support of agape love, not mere obedience in fear of God. This is why no one prior to Christ ever achieved eternal connection with God after death. Their Spirits were simply not compatible with God's agape love.
By the time of Christ, the "fields were ripe for the harvest," but no one had the inclination to use self-control out of agape love for God and others, except Jesus. He did everything to teach and demonstrate the New Covenant of love with God and paid the ultimate price for it in scourging and crucifixion by our brutal, savage, barbaric, and ignorant ancestors. But He "Hit a Grand Slam" because He still loved us all, including those who tortured and murdered Him in their ignorance. "They knew not what they did."
The Good News is that His death and First-born rebirth of His HUMAN consciousness as Spirit did two very important things. If they BELIEVED JESUS (NOT believed IN), it removed the fear of death by the concept of resurrection - a "carnal milk" version our carnal minded ancestors could accept (because they were deathly afraid of Spirits). This is where FAITH that Jesus IS the Firstborn of us is important. He paved the way for us to be "born again" as Spirit upon our death. That is why He said not to concern yourself with saving your life here on earth. Our FAITH in His rebirth removes the fear of death as long as we follow His instructions to His disciples and love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
Jesus SAVED our entire species from eternal separation from God by His death which connected His PERFECT HUMAN consciousness to ALL (previous and future) human consciousness. His "born again" Spirit of perfect agape love connected all human consciousness to God who IS the Spirit of agape love. This and His perfect agape love (Grace) provides cover for our imperfections as long as we love God and each other. That is how He is the Way. Only through His perfection are we able to be connected to God. The best part is that He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us in agape love to the truth God has now "written in our hearts." All we have to DO is love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
I will not debate you about the self-congratulatory Jewish narrative and glorification of their relationship with God. I will keep it more generic. The parties have always been the entire species Homo sapiens Homo sapiens and God. Our species initially was adulterated by inbreeding and interbreeding with lesser species producing aberrations and abominations. The species was culled by a flood, city-wide destructions, wars, and various genocides and interbreeding with only virgin females, etc.. In any case, the point is a particular progenitor displayed special ability for self-control of his selfish desires and was promised his seed would become dominant. That seed led to the birth of Jesus. But as I explained elsewhere:
Everything prior to Jesus was Prologue. Our barbaric and savage species had to evolve and then mature enough to make possible the self-control of our baser urges through agape love for all life. The beginning of our species' wisdom was the achievement of self-control using obedience and the fear of God - the Schoolmaster stage. The ability for self-control is not enough. It has to be applied in support of agape love, not mere obedience in fear of God. This is why no one prior to Christ ever achieved eternal connection with God after death. Their Spirits were simply not compatible with God's agape love.
By the time of Christ, the "fields were ripe for the harvest," but no one had the inclination to use self-control out of agape love for God and others, except Jesus. He did everything to teach and demonstrate the New Covenant of love with God and paid the ultimate price for it in scourging and crucifixion by our brutal, savage, barbaric, and ignorant ancestors. But He "Hit a Grand Slam" because He still loved us all, including those who tortured and murdered Him in their ignorance. "They knew not what they did."
The Good News is that His death and First-born rebirth of His HUMAN consciousness as Spirit did two very important things. If they BELIEVED JESUS (NOT believed IN), it removed the fear of death by the concept of resurrection - a "carnal milk" version our carnal minded ancestors could accept (because they were deathly afraid of Spirits). This is where FAITH that Jesus IS the Firstborn of us is important. He paved the way for us to be "born again" as Spirit upon our death. That is why He said not to concern yourself with saving your life here on earth. Our FAITH in His rebirth removes the fear of death as long as we follow His instructions to His disciples and love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
Jesus SAVED our entire species from eternal separation from God by His death which connected His PERFECT HUMAN consciousness to ALL (previous and future) human consciousness. His "born again" Spirit of perfect agape love connected all human consciousness to God who IS the Spirit of agape love. This and His perfect agape love (Grace) provides cover for our imperfections as long as we love God and each other. That is how He is the Way. Only through His perfection are we able to be connected to God. The best part is that He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us in agape love to the truth God has now "written in our hearts." All we have to DO is love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
I refuse to read beyond the thread title and am waiting for this thread to slip into oblivion. Perhaps there is someone who personally lost a baby in all these pages I'm not reading and if so, I say to that person, please rest in God's goodness. Some questions simply insult God's character.
So since you refuse to answer my questions I will so that others who read these posts will have understanding.
1. The Old Covenant was instituted by God.
2. The covenant was between God and the ancient people of Israel.
3. The purpose was that; the nation of Israel was to fill the role of mediator between God and the other peoples of the earth.
4. The stipulations were God would bless them if they kept His commandments.
You will not debate with me because?:
Quote:
I will not debate you about the self-congratulatory Jewish narrative and glorification of their relationship with God.
You actually see the narrative as being "self-congratulatory" and a "glorification"?I see in it the absolute utter failure on the part of Israel in keeping the covenant they made with God. A covenant in which God reached out to Israel and through whom He desired to use as the vessel in which He would bless all mankind. However, because of the sin of rebellion, the Old Covenant was broken and it became necessary that a New Covenant be instituted. This was not because of any failure on the part of God or not because ancient Israel could not keep the covenant they had made but because they chose not to keep it!
We must realize that none of this was of any surprise to God. He knew even before He laid the foundations of the world that Adam and Eve would sin, Israel would rebel and break the covenant they wholeheartedly agreed to. The New Covenant was in the plan of God even before time began.
AH! It finally comes to the surface! Your evolutionary world view!
Quote:
....the entire species Homo sapiens Homo sapiens and God. Our species initially was adulterated by inbreeding and interbreeding with lesser species producing aberrations and abominations.
Quote:
Our barbaric and savage species had to evolve and then mature....
That's why you do not believe the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, to the inspired written word of God. You do not have to accept that during the creation, concerning what He had created, five times God said "it was good" and when God saw all that He had made He said "it was very good". In fact you do not have to believe that God created anything! You do not have to accept that it was only as a result of Adam's and Eve's sin of disobedience that God's very good creation became corrupt.
Because of your evolutionistic beliefs you are free to espouse your all inclusive God is love salvation rhetoric. There is no such thing as SIN therefore God will freely accept all who believe the teachings of Jesus. Believing that there is no punishment for sin since there is no sin. No hell in which sinful man will be eternally separated from the presence of a Holy God!
I refuse to read beyond the thread title and am waiting for this thread to slip into oblivion. Perhaps there is someone who personally lost a baby in all these pages I'm not reading and if so, I say to that person, please rest in God's goodness. Some questions simply insult God's character.
A friend lost a baby 28 hours old.
At the grave site the minister said God has another angel in heaven.
Why would God need another angel in heaven ? That made No sense to me. And surely No comfort.
Years later when shown 1st Corinthians 7:14 that minor children come under the parents care, that was comfort.
So, is Romans 6:7 that the dead are freed or acquitted from sin.
Is it so much questions that insult God's character, or rather false teachings such as God takes babies from parents ?
Rather, time and unforeseen events happen to all of us - Ecclesiastes 9:11
Father Adam passed down death to us - Romans 5:12
God send Jesus to undo all the damage father Adam brought upon us.
That means Jesus will bring ' enemy death ' to nothing - 1st Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
So, during Jesus' 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth enemy death will be No more - Revelation 21:4-5
At that soon coming millennial time: No one will say, " I am sick......" - Isaiah 33:24
Mankind will be at peace with mankind - Micah 4:3-4; Isaiah 2:4
Mankind will even be a peace with animal kind - Isaiah 11:6-9
Even the deserts will blossom - Isaiah chapter 35
All the resurrections Jesus' performed were bringing back people to healthy physical life on Earth.
Jesus was giving us preview, or coming attraction, of what he will be doing during his soon coming millennium-long day governing over Earth. The majority of people will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to life on Earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on Earth as originally offered to Adam before his downfall. This way parents will be re-united with their children and children re-united with parents.
Evident by Jesus' words on the cross "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
Forget all the horrors of mankind's actions and focus on the works of God. That is where one finds understanding.
Blessings, AJ
However, Jesus was addressing the Roman soldiers that God should forgive those Roman soldiers because those soldiers know not what they do.
Jesus was Not addressing forgetting or forgiving all the horrors of mankind's actions.
Those of Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6 are Not forgiven, are they ? _______
Sin is either: on purpose or not, willfull or not, by accident or not, premeditated or not, intentional or not.
If we do Not repent ( turn around ) we will perish ( be destroyed ) - 2nd Peter 3:9
I will not debate you about the self-congratulatory Jewish narrative and glorification of their relationship with God. I will keep it more generic. The parties have always been the entire species Homo sapiens Homo sapiens and God. Our species initially was adulterated by inbreeding and interbreeding with lesser species producing aberrations and abominations. The species was culled by a flood, city-wide destructions, wars, and various genocides and interbreeding with only virgin females, etc.. In any case, the point is a particular progenitor displayed special ability for self-control of his selfish desires and was promised his seed would become dominant. That seed led to the birth of Jesus. But as I explained elsewhere:
Everything prior to Jesus was Prologue. Our barbaric and savage species had to evolve and then mature enough to make possible the self-control of our baser urges through agape love for all life. The beginning of our species' wisdom was the achievement of self-control using obedience and the fear of God - the Schoolmaster stage. The ability for self-control is not enough. It has to be applied in support of agape love, not mere obedience in fear of God. This is why no one prior to Christ ever achieved eternal connection with God after death. Their Spirits were simply not compatible with God's agape love.
By the time of Christ, the "fields were ripe for the harvest," but no one had the inclination to use self-control out of agape love for God and others, except Jesus. He did everything to teach and demonstrate the New Covenant of love with God and paid the ultimate price for it in scourging and crucifixion by our brutal, savage, barbaric, and ignorant ancestors. But He "Hit a Grand Slam" because He still loved us all, including those who tortured and murdered Him in their ignorance. "They knew not what they did."
The Good News is that His death and First-born rebirth of His HUMAN consciousness as Spirit did two very important things. If they BELIEVED JESUS (NOT believed IN), it removed the fear of death by the concept of resurrection - a "carnal milk" version our carnal minded ancestors could accept (because they were deathly afraid of Spirits). This is where FAITH that Jesus IS the Firstborn of us is important. He paved the way for us to be "born again" as Spirit upon our death. That is why He said not to concern yourself with saving your life here on earth. Our FAITH in His rebirth removes the fear of death as long as we follow His instructions to His disciples and love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
Jesus SAVED our entire species from eternal separation from God by His death which connected His PERFECT HUMAN consciousness to ALL (previous and future) human consciousness. His "born again" Spirit of perfect agape love connected all human consciousness to God who IS the Spirit of agape love. This and His perfect agape love (Grace) provides cover for our imperfections as long as we love God and each other. That is how He is the Way. Only through His perfection are we able to be connected to God. The best part is that He abides with us as the Comforter sent in His name to guide us in agape love to the truth God has now "written in our hearts." All we have to DO is love God and each other every day and repent when we don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos
So since you refuse to answer my questions I will so that others who read these posts will have understanding.
1. The Old Covenant was instituted by God.
2. The covenant was between God and the ancient people of Israel.
3. The purpose was that; the nation of Israel was to fill the role of mediator between God and the other peoples of the earth.
4. The stipulations were God would bless them if they kept His commandments.
You will not debate with me because?: You actually see the narrative as being "self-congratulatory" and a "glorification"?I see in it the absolute utter failure on the part of Israel in keeping the covenant they made with God. A covenant in which God reached out to Israel and through whom He desired to use as the vessel in which He would bless all mankind. However, because of the sin of rebellion, the Old Covenant was broken and it became necessary that a New Covenant be instituted. This was not because of any failure on the part of God or not because ancient Israel could not keep the covenant they had made but because they chose not to keep it!
We must realize that none of this was of any surprise to God. He knew even before He laid the foundations of the world that Adam and Eve would sin, Israel would rebel and break the covenant they wholeheartedly agreed to. The New Covenant was in the plan of God even before time began. AH! It finally comes to the surface! Your evolutionary world view!
That's why you do not believe the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, to the inspired written word of God. You do not have to accept that during the creation, concerning what He had created, five times God said "it was good" and when God saw all that He had made He said "it was very good". In fact you do not have to believe that God created anything! You do not have to accept that it was only as a result of Adam's and Eve's sin of disobedience that God's very good creation became corrupt.
Because of your evolutionistic beliefs you are free to espouse your all inclusive God is love salvation rhetoric. There is no such thing as SIN therefore God will freely accept all who believe the teachings of Jesus. Believing that there is no punishment for sin since there is no sin. No hell in which sinful man will be eternally separated from the presence of a Holy God!
I try to be as explicit as possible to convey the reality of my views and where I derive them from the scriptures.I cannot help but be dismayed by the extent of misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and pure nonsense fundies seem to find it necessary to add to them. How many times must I say I believe the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God and they form a part of my views and understanding of God and Jesus??? But it is NOT the Word of God. Jesus IS!! How many times must I say we will reap whatever we sow based on our sins(missing the mark) if we do not repent????
The story of Adam and Eve chronicles the first LESSON we all must learn after coming into this world, NOT the first "sin." It is when we gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, right and wrong. After learning this lesson, we were expected to develop the ability to achieve eternal life, but we had to learn self-control over our baser urges. The Lesson of Cain revealed that our animal nature only wants to help us ("sin" is for us), it is on our side. But it's inability to discriminate between Good and Evil is why we must master it. In short, the Bible chronicles the spiritual evolution of our understanding of God and our role in life. It never was about an angry wrathful God punishing us for learning about Good and Evil. That is preposterous.
Your literal interpretation of the Bible stories and your mistaken belief that the Bible MUST be the 100% inerrant and infallible word of God is why you fail to spiritually develop and mature as we are intended to. Of course, God is responsible for the existence of everything but evolution is the process He uses to bring us to the level of spiritual development and maturity we need to gain eternal life through Jesus. What needed to be done was done by Jesus so we are ALL saved from eternal separation from God.There is NO hell that remotely resembles the eternal hell of mainstream Christianity. There is no annihilation either. God is NOT wasteful. There is correction based on our OWN actions toward others. Reaping whatever we have done to others and not repented of will be a supremely unpleasant set of experiences.
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I see in it the absolute utter failure on the part of Israel in keeping the covenant they made with God. A covenant in which God reached out to Israel and through whom He desired to use as the vessel in which He would bless all mankind. However, because of the sin of rebellion, the Old Covenant was broken and it became necessary that a New Covenant be instituted. This was not because of any failure on the part of God or not because ancient Israel could not keep the covenant they had made but because they chose not to keep it!
