Are Babies Who Have Not Been Saved Comdemned To Hell? (Roman, forgive)

[RainMusic]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I try to be as explicit as possible to convey the reality of my views and where I derive them from the scriptures.I cannot help but be dismayed by the extent of misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and pure nonsense fundies seem to find it necessary to add to them. How many times must I say I believe the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God and they form a part of my views and understanding of God and Jesus??? But it is NOT the Word of God. Jesus IS!! How many times must I say we will reap whatever we sow based on our sins(missing the mark) if we do not repent????

Apparently more than 70 X 7 ! They ignore this in order to continue holding you in their imaginary power to condemn you. Even PERCEIVED - IMAGINARY power corrupts!

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I try to be as explicit as possible to convey the reality of my views and where I derive them from the scriptures.I cannot help but be dismayed by the extent of misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and pure nonsense fundies seem to find it necessary to add to them. How many times must I say I believe the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God and they form a part of my views and understanding of God and Jesus??? But it is NOT the Word of God. Jesus IS!! How many times must I say we will reap whatever we sow based on our sins(missing the mark) if we do not repent????

You have made your views abundantly clear. We've discussed this before I just happen to not agree with you. You "believe the Bible" only "CONTAINS inspirations from God" were I believe it to the the written word of God (note 'small w'). God's revelation of Himself to mankind given by inspiration to mankind prior to the birth of Jesus who is the embodiment of the Word (God). (Ref. John 1:1-14)

The story of Adam and Eve chronicles the first LESSON we all must learn after coming into this world, NOT the first "sin." It is when we gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, right and wrong.

I believe you are not saying "poof!" out of nowhere mankind suddenly gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, without the commandment of God not to eat and its violation how did we gain that knowledge?

It never was about an angry wrathful God punishing us for learning about Good and Evil.

You never once have seen me say anything about God being angry. What I have said is because of God's nature which is Holy and Loving rebellion must be dealt with. Therefore wrath is God's response to sin that has not been atoned for.

(Heb 12:14 [KJV])
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I thought I read a post of yours in which there was no such thing as sin. So it seems that I have had a misconception in your belief regarding it. However, you did say above:

How many times must I say we will reap whatever we sow based on our sins(missing the mark) if we do not repent????

(emphasis mine). So there is such a thing as sin. What is the consequence of not repenting when one misses the mark? Simply reaping what one sows?

Your literal interpretation of the Bible stories and your mistaken belief that the Bible MUST be the 100% inerrant and infallible word of God is why you fail to spiritually develop and mature as we are intended to.

Only one thing to say about this: Who are you to judge my spiritual maturity?

There is NO hell that remotely resembles the eternal hell of mainstream Christianity. There is no annihilation either. God is NOT wasteful.

From where do you get your understanding that God is not wasteful?

There is correction based on our OWN actions toward others. Reaping whatever we have done to others and not repented of will be a supremely unpleasant set of experiences.

So the only consequence of missing the mark is reaping what I so? And if I have not repented by the time this physical body dies the only consequence will be or has been is the reaping of what I have sown?

Your Friendly Fundi

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

I try to be as explicit as possible to convey the reality of my views and where I derive them from the scriptures.I cannot help but be dismayed by the extent of misunderstanding, misrepresentation, and pure nonsense fundies seem to find it necessary to add to them. How many times must I say I believe the Bible CONTAINS inspirations from God and they form a part of my views and understanding of God and Jesus??? But it is NOT the Word of God. Jesus IS!! How many times must I say we will reap whatever we sow based on our sins(missing the mark) if we do not repent????

The story of Adam and Eve chronicles the first LESSON we all must learn after coming into this world, NOT the first "sin." It is when we gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, right and wrong. After learning this lesson, we were expected to develop the ability to achieve eternal life, but we had to learn self-control over our baser urges. The Lesson of Cain revealed that our animal nature only wants to help us ("sin" is for us), it is on our side. But it's inability to discriminate between Good and Evil is why we must master it. In short, the Bible chronicles the spiritual evolution of our understanding of God and our role in life. It never was about an angry wrathful God punishing us for learning about Good and Evil. That is preposterous.

Your literal interpretation of the Bible stories and your mistaken belief that the Bible MUST be the 100% inerrant and infallible word of God is why you fail to spiritually develop and mature as we are intended to. Of course, God is responsible for the existence of everything but evolution is the process He uses to bring us to the level of spiritual development and maturity we need to gain eternal life through Jesus. What needed to be done was done by Jesus so we are ALL saved from eternal separation from God.There is NO hell that remotely resembles the eternal hell of mainstream Christianity. There is no annihilation either. God is NOT wasteful. There is correction based on our OWN actions toward others. Reaping whatever we have done to others and not repented of will be a supremely unpleasant set of experiences.

Originally Posted by diakonos

You have made your views abundantly clear. We've discussed this before I just happen to not agree with you. You "believe the Bible" only "CONTAINS inspirations from God" were I believe it to the the written word of God (note 'small w'). God's revelation of Himself to mankind given by inspiration to mankind prior to the birth of Jesus who is the embodiment of the Word (God). (Ref. John 1:1-14)

Your tolerance for contradiction and inconsistency is beyond belief if you think the entire Bible is 100% the word of God. Your tolerance for barbarity is equality beyond the pale if you think the Bible is 100% the word of God. You cannot have EVER actually read and thought about what is actually in the Bible.

I believe you are not saying "poof!" out of nowhere mankind suddenly gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, without the commandment of God not to eat and its violation how did we gain that knowledge?

Oh come on, how did you learn the difference, it was undoubtedly from your parents' rules. This is not rocket science.

You never once have seen me say anything about God being angry. What I have said is because of God's nature which is Holy and Loving rebellion must be dealt with. Therefore wrath is God's response to sin that has not been atoned for.

It has nothing to do with the human rationalization that God's holiness is somehow intolerant. That is a bogus idea fostered by the churches to gain control over others using fear.

I thought I read a post of yours in which there was no such thing as sin. So it seems that I have had a misconception in your belief regarding it. However, you did say above: (emphasis mine). So there is such a thing as sin. What is the consequence of not repenting when one misses the mark? Simply reaping what one sows?

That is the only reasonable consequence and it requires nothing else since it is self-imposed and completely just.

Only one thing to say about this: Who are you to judge my spiritual maturity?

If you do not see that allowing your understanding of God and Jesus to STAGNATE at the knowledge and understanding of our ignorant primitive ancestors is stunting your spiritual development and maturity, nothing I say will make any difference.

From where do you get your understanding that God is not wasteful?

Logic and reason based on His saying what He created was Good. Why on earth would He allow ANY of it to be wasted.

So the only consequence of missing the mark is reaping what I so? And if I have not repented by the time this physical body dies the only consequence will be or has been is the reaping of what I have sown?

I doubt you will feel like laughing when faced with the consequences of your transgressions against others, especially those you may be oblivious of.

[diakonos]

Quote:
Originally Posted by diakonos
You have made your views abundantly clear. We've discussed this before I just happen to not agree with you. You "believe the Bible" only "CONTAINS inspirations from God" were I believe it to the the written word of God (note 'small w'). God's revelation of Himself to mankind given by inspiration to mankind prior to the birth of Jesus who is the embodiment of the Word (God). (Ref. John 1:1-14)

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Your tolerance for contradiction and inconsistency is beyond belief if you think the entire Bible is 100% the word of God. Your tolerance for barbarity is equality beyond the pale if you think the Bible is 100% the word of God. You cannot have EVER actually read and thought about what is actually in the Bible.

No, I can not tolerate those who pervert the message of Christ to suite their own purposes, preaching ultimate salvation of ALL peoples no matter how they have lived their lives. It is absurd to believe that someone how has committed the most heinous of crimes against another person or persons will ultimately have salvation given to them.

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos
I believe you are not saying "poof!" out of nowhere mankind suddenly gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil. However, without the commandment of God not to eat and its violation how did we gain that knowledge?

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Oh come on, how did you learn the difference, it was undoubtedly from your parents' rules. This is not rocket science.

Admittedly that is true for me and my children. However I have one question who taught the first human couple so they could pass it on to their offspring? You chose to ignore the fact that the Knowledge of Good and Evil had to begin somewhere. I submit: God gave the commandment and it was willfully ignored. And the consequence is mankind gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil and sin came into the world.

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos
You never once have seen me say anything about God being angry. What I have said is because of God's nature which is Holy and Loving rebellion must be dealt with. Therefore wrath is God's response to sin that has not been atoned for.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It has nothing to do with the human rationalization that God's holiness is somehow intolerant. That is a bogus idea fostered by the churches to gain control over others using fear.

So you say. So in your righteous tolerance you are willing to forgive all manor of heinous crimes without punishment? Do you not see how ridicules that is? Surly you do not advocate the abolishment of our judicial system which punishes wrong doing? Where do you think the concept came from was it our "ignorant, barbaric and savage ancestors"?

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos
I thought I read a post of yours in which there was no such thing as sin. So it seems that I have had a misconception in your belief regarding it. However, you did say that sin was missing the mark. So there is such a thing as sin. What is the consequence of not repenting when one misses the mark? Simply reaping what one sows?

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That is the only reasonable consequence and it requires nothing else since it is self-imposed and completely just.

Reasonable? What may be reasonable to you certainly may not be reasonable to another.

(Prov 14:12 [NASB])
There is a way which seems right [reasonable] to a man, But its end is the way of death. (emphasis mine)

(Prov 12:15 [NASB])
The way of a fool is right [reasonable] in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. (emphasis mine)

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos Only one thing to say about this: Who are you to judge my spiritual maturity?
.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
If you do not see that allowing your understanding of God and Jesus to STAGNATE at the knowledge and understanding of our ignorant primitive ancestors is stunting your spiritual development and maturity, nothing I say will make any difference.

Again I say Who are you to judge my spiritual maturity? I used to believe that God would be mad at me when I sinned. But I have learned that He while He may be disappointed He is certainly not mad and He is more than willing to forgive my transgressions when I confess them to Him.

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos From where do you get your understanding that God is not wasteful?
.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Logic and reason based on His saying what He created was Good. Why on earth would He allow ANY of it to be wasted.

(shrug) But if you ask any eco extremist they will tell you we are raping an pillaging the very planet He created and He is allowing it.

Quote:Originally Posted by diakonos
So the only consequence of missing the mark is reaping what I so? And if I have not repented by the time this physical body dies the only consequence will be or has been is the reaping of what I have sown?
.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I doubt you will feel like laughing when faced with the consequences of your transgressions against others, especially those you may be oblivious of.

I guess I'll never understand your reasoning. You have told me that the consequences of sin is reaping what one sows. However, by your reasoning, since there is not hell a person could commit a heinous crime against a child, die a short time after and not have any consequence to the crime. The child has to live the rest of his or her life with the emotional and perhaps physical consequences. Why would a god who IS ONLY love allow such a thing?

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Your tolerance for contradiction and inconsistency is beyond belief if you think the entire Bible is 100% the word of God. Your tolerance for barbarity is equality beyond the pale if you think the Bible is 100% the word of God. You cannot have EVER actually read and thought about what is actually in the Bible.
Oh come on, how did you learn the difference, it was undoubtedly from your parents' rules. This is not rocket science. It has nothing to do with the human rationalization that God's holiness is somehow intolerant. That is a bogus idea fostered by the churches to gain control over others using fear. That is the only reasonable consequence and it requires nothing else since it is self-imposed and completely just. If you do not see that allowing your understanding of God and Jesus to STAGNATE at the knowledge and understanding of our ignorant primitive ancestors is stunting your spiritual development and maturity, nothing I say will make any difference. Logic and reason based on His saying what He created was Good. Why on earth would He allow ANY of it to be wasted.I doubt you will feel like laughing when faced with the consequences of your transgressions against others, especially those you may be oblivious of.

Originally Posted by diakonos

You have made your views abundantly clear. We've discussed this before I just happen to not agree with you. You "believe the Bible" only "CONTAINS inspirations from God" were I believe it to the the written word of God (note 'small w'). God's revelation of Himself to mankind given by inspiration to mankind prior to the birth of Jesus who is the embodiment of the Word (God). (Ref. John 1:1-14)[/i]

How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told God has "written in our hearts" and the Spirit is our guide to the truth written there? How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told that the "letter kills" but the Spirit "written in fleshy tables of the heart" gives life?

No, I can not tolerate those who pervert the message of Christ to suite their own purposes, preaching ultimate salvation of ALL peoples no matter how they have lived their lives. It is absurd to believe that someone how has committed the most heinous of crimes against another person or persons will ultimately have salvation given to them.

Then you must THINK that WE have something to do with our salvation, but we are told that Jesus alone saved us, NOT anything we do. How can you believe that we must save ourselves if Jesus already DID it and it is finished???

Admittedly that is true for me and my children. However I have one question who taught the first human couple so they could pass it on to their offspring? You chose to ignore the fact that the Knowledge of Good and Evil had to begin somewhere. I submit: God gave the commandment and it was willfully ignored. And the consequence is mankind gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil and sin came into the world.

Wrong. Sin is not some magical thing that came into the world. It is simply being wrong, missing the mark. Their disobedience was the first wrong of many we humans would commit, but it taught us the concept of Good and Evil which is necessary for us to achieve eternal life.

So you say. So in your righteous tolerance you are willing to forgive all manor of heinous crimes without punishment? Do you not see how ridicules that is?

Who are you and I to forgive heinous crimes? That is God's role, NOT ours.

Surly you do not advocate the abolishment of our judicial system which punishes wrong doing?

OF course not, but that is for society to decide, NOT God. We are NOT a Theocracy and we do not make laws because God said so. We have to have a societal reason, NOT a religious one.

Where do you think the concept came from was it our "ignorant, barbaric and savage ancestors"?

Yes. We are vengeful creatures.

Reasonable? What may be reasonable to you certainly may not be reasonable to another.
(Prov 14:12 [NASB])
There is a way which seems right [reasonable] to a man, But its end is the way of death. (emphasis mine)
(Prov 12:15 [NASB])
The way of a fool is right [reasonable] in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel. (emphasis mine)

There is very little point in discussing what is reasonable with someone whose beliefs are based on unreasoning credulity in an ancient book whose content is NOT tested against the Spirit of agape love revealed by Jesus.

Again I say Who are you to judge my spiritual maturity? I used to believe that God would be mad at me when I sinned. But I have learned that He while He may be disappointed He is certainly not mad and He is more than willing to forgive my transgressions when I confess them to Him.

You accept at face value the beliefs of our primitive ancestors who had to be fed "carnal milk" instead of "solid food" because they were mere infants in Christ and you have NOT matured beyond them. THAT is why I question your spiritual maturity.

I guess I'll never understand your reasoning. You have told me that the consequences of sin is reaping what one sows. However, by your reasoning, since there is not hell a person could commit a heinous crime against a child, die a short time after and not have any consequence to the crime.

Reaping what you sow means that after you die you will have to experience every single hurt or harm you have inflicted on others. It is NOT hell, but I assure you it will NOT be pleasant.

The child has to live the rest of his or her life with the emotional and perhaps physical consequences. Why would a god who IS ONLY love allow such a thing?

The perpetrator will experience the same things after death. You fundies keep asking why God allows this or that, have you forgotten that WE were given Dominion on the earth by His Sovereign Will? Do you think He goes back on His word????

[Freak80]

"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -- Albert Einstein

This thread is proof enough.

[Derek41]

Not really sure what happens, and am of moderate Catholic faith.
There was a nondeclared doctrine regarding "limbo" - a bone of contention with the fundamentalists, but it does not really explain the fate of babies and infants.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told God has "written in our hearts" and the Spirit is our guide to the truth written there? How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told that the "letter kills" but the Spirit "written in fleshy tables of the heart" gives life?

.
I really would like to to answer this but you will not like my answer.
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Then you must THINK that WE have something to do with our salvation, but we are told that Jesus alone saved us, NOT anything we do. How can you believe that we must save ourselves if Jesus already DID it and it is finished???

.
No. Salvation is a free gift. However, we must accept it. God does not force Himself nor His gifts on us. He has given us free will to accept or reject the free gift of salvation.
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Reaping what you sow means that after you die you will have to experience every single hurt or harm you have inflicted on others. It is NOT hell, but I assure you it will NOT be pleasant. The perpetrator will experience the same things after death.

.
So there is a hell just not one in which one is tortured? Your description sure sounds like it to me.
.

You fundies keep asking why God allows this or that, have you forgotten that WE were given Dominion on the earth by His Sovereign Will? Do you think He goes back on His word????

.
Given by by whom, when, and over what? Our dominion: .....have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth” (Gen. 1:28) Our dominion was given to Adam and Eve by God and extends only to the other creatures of God's creation on the earth. Nothing else. However dominion was lost at the fall.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told God has "written in our hearts" and the Spirit is our guide to the truth written there? How do you reconcile the reliance on the words "written in ink" when we are told that the "letter kills" but the Spirit "written in fleshy tables of the heart" gives life?
Then you must THINK that WE have something to do with our salvation, but we are told that Jesus alone saved us, NOT anything we do. How can you believe that we must save ourselves if Jesus already DID it and it is finished???
Wrong. Sin is not some magical thing that came into the world. It is simply being wrong, missing the mark. Their disobedience was the first wrong of many we humans would commit, but it taught us the concept of Good and Evil which is necessary for us to achieve eternal life.
Who are you and I to forgive heinous crimes? That is God's role, NOT ours. OF course not, but that is for society to decide, NOT God. We are NOT a Theocracy and we do not make laws because God said so. We have to have a societal reason, NOT a religious one. Yes. We are vengeful creatures.
There is very little point in discussing what is reasonable with someone whose beliefs are based on unreasoning credulity in an ancient book whose content is NOT tested against the Spirit of agape love revealed by Jesus.
You accept at face value the beliefs of our primitive ancestors who had to be fed "carnal milk" instead of "solid food" because they were mere infants in Christ and you have NOT matured beyond them. THAT is why I question your spiritual maturity.Reaping what you sow means that after you die you will have to experience every single hurt or harm you have inflicted on others. It is NOT hell, but I assure you it will NOT be pleasant. The perpetrator will experience the same things after death. You fundies keep asking why God allows this or that, have you forgotten that WE were given Dominion on the earth by His Sovereign Will? Do you think He goes back on His word????

Originally Posted by diakonos

.
I really would like to to answer this but you will not like my answer.

You do not have an answer. You have blind faith in ancient ignorance, barbarity, and dogma.

.
No. Salvation is a free gift. However, we must accept it. God does not force Himself nor His gifts on us. He has given us free will to accept or reject the free gift of salvation.

Wrong! Jesus is not our Gift-Giver. He is our Savior. That means He saves us. We have nothing to do with it. The churches wanted membership and a reason to belong so they created this Gift nonsense. Saviors do NOT merely give you a gift. They actually SAVE you. Jesus saved us ALL. It is finished.

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So there is a hell just not one in which one is tortured? Your description sure sounds like it to me.

There is no Hell that is a judgment and punishment from God on ANY specific behaviors. Whatever we do to hurt or harm others in the selfish pursuit of our lives will produce consequences that we will have to face after our death if we do not repent before our death. BTW, repentance is NOT merely being remorseful, apologizing and asking for forgiveness. It is a complete renewing of your heart and mind.

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Given by by whom, when, and over what? Our dominion: .....have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth” (Gen. 1:28) Our dominion was given to Adam and Eve by God and extends only to the other creatures of God's creation on the earth. Nothing else. However dominion was lost at the fall.

Absolute nonsense! There was no Fall, just our first lesson in right and wrong - Good and Evil. God did NOT take back our Dominion. HE does not renege on His word and Sovereign Will. We are IT down here so expecting God to do anything physical about our situation here is fruitless. He ONLY concerns Himself with our Spiritual (read: Consciousness) state of mind. He will help us to cope, have strength to endure and have hope. Dominion means Dominion. All the evil in humanity is on US, period. All the lack of agape love and lack of mercy and lack of compassion is on US.

[diakonos]

I am done with this conversation as it is apparent the I will never get you to remove your blinders nor will you get me to place them on.

Your Favorite Fundie