Does GOd live by the laws which he has commanded humanity to obey? (traditions, Gospel)
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God glorifies Himself, and seeks His own interests - which is not Christ-like behavior.
I believe His interest is His own creation .
The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zephaniah 3 : 17
Or does God tell us what righteousness is yet he himself does not live by the same righteous understanding? Christ tells us not to return evil for evil, and to love our enemies. Do you believe God will return evil for evil? Do you believe that God loves his enemies?
God doesn't know evil. He is Divine and the only way He can know evil is when we commit the act. He experiences through us.
THe only punishment that is meted out is the punishment you do to yourself when reconciling to Him. You feel the pain and torment as you struggle with your own misdeeds. God doesn't do it for you. It's the workings of your own soul that deal out the punishemnt.
God has Laws and when we don't abide by them, in Love, we reap the consequences. God will love us no matter what, however, He isn't the punishing God that people tend to believe in. He is Love, kindness, mercy, just, compassionate and above all Loving. You reap what you sow.
God doesn't know evil. He is Divine and the only way He can know evil is when we commit the act. He experiences through us.
THe only punishment that is meted out is the punishment you do to yourself when reconciling to Him. You feel the pain and torment as you struggle with your own misdeeds. God doesn't do it for you. It's the workings of your own soul that deal out the punishemnt.
God has Laws and when we don't abide by them, in Love, we reap the consequences. God will love us no matter what, however, He isn't the punishing God that people tend to believe in. He is Love, kindness, mercy, just, compassionate and above all Loving. You reap what you sow.
God does say He knows evil:
Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold! The man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and also take from the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever,
The reason God knows evil is because he creates it:
Isa 45:7 forming light, and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil. I, Jehovah, do all these things.
The way I understand this (IMO), is that God creates evil to be the consequences of sin. Evil is a law to sin, if you will, as much as blessings are a law to righteousness.
So there is no miss understanding, I don't believe God creates or uses evil for the sake of evil though. He uses evil to illustrate, instruct, guide, chastise and prevent further sin by His creation. He creates evil for the sake of righteousness. Jehovah is truly good:
1Sa 2:2 None is holy like Jehovah, for there is none except You; yea, there is no rock like our God.
Or does God tell us what righteousness is yet he himself does not live by the same righteous understanding? Christ tells us not to return evil for evil, and to love our enemies. Do you believe God will return evil for evil? Do you believe that God loves his enemies?
I don't think God lives under any laws or obligations like His creation does. God is love, and perhaps it might be said that God is a law unto Himself.
Laws were written for lawless people to illustrate their lawless deeds and it's consequences:
Rom 4:15 For the Law works out wrath; for where no law is, neither is transgression.
But God, in his love and mercy, laid the consequences of our lawlessness and His wrath on His Son, as an act of love for us. Truly an amazing God that His creation has!
But what does the next verse say? What happens after their foot slips and God repays?
Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
So even God's vengence upon his enemies has a beneficial purpose.... to bring about the condition "their power is gone" within the hearts of those being judged so that God can once again have mercy upon them. So God is not returning evil for evil in this passage, since God's ultimate intent is good even though harsh.
TKC,
Really? Where to start............ Deuteronomy 32:40-43
40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders."
43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
40 I lift my hand to heaven and declare:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me. 42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders." 43 Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
I always find it interesting to see fundamentalists Quote the old testament in order to prove their doctrine. They are always quoting from the most violent and bloodthirsty passages, and almost always skim right over the passages that speak about mercy and healing ...
The fact is this passage(Deuteronomy 32:40-43) of scripture, along with so many others, falls right into the part of the old testament revelation and law that Jesus refers to when he speaks of eye for an eye and returning evil for evil ...
Mat 5:43-48
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We see here that Jesus is saying that things are changing. Is God changing? No ... But the way in which he relates to mankind is changing. Before God was the God of Israel, and now he is the God of the gentiles as well. What, at one time, God did reserve for Israel; it is now given to the gentile nations as well. And the judgments he once reserved for Israel are now given to all nations. So that those judgments intended by God to reconcile Israel and bring them back into his grace, are the same judgments whereby he judges the whole world.
So Deuteronomy 32:36 which is the judgment God once reserved for the destroying and healing of Israel alone, is now the same judgments God uses for the destroying and healing of every nations on earth ... And so we see ...
Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Notice he always hurts and destroys before he heals and brings back to life?
The same is said in ...
Isaiah 57:16-19
16For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
So God does destroy and smite the wicked for their iniquities, and does for a time hide himself from them so that they continue on forward in the ways of their hearts. However, God sees the ways of the wicked, and though he smite them to their destruction, so will he then heal them and restore comforts to them and those that mourn their destruction. Not just Israel anymore, but the whole world ... That is the new covenant ...
Iron,
"fundamentalists Quote the old testament in order to prove their doctrine" if it silences those who essentially are calling Jesus a liar, why not?
god is not a performer. he wrote the script.
he is sort of like the MC at a circus or a master performer that announces the next act. he wants us to be happy and to enjoy the show.
So you guys both believe God will return evil for evil ... Which is tantamount to saying God lives by the mantra "do as I say and not as I do" towards his creation ...
I contend that the reason why God says "Vengeance is mine" is because where a man would take revenge for the sole purpose of brutally injuring or debilitating his enemy out of hate ... God will instead take vengeance in order to teach and eventually heal his enemies out of love.
Which is my own answer to both of my questions. I noticed you guys only answered one question, what about the question concerning God loving his enemies?
Iron,
"fundamentalists Quote the old testament in order to prove their doctrine" if it silences those who essentially are calling Jesus a liar, why not?
The point is your only representing one side of the coin. Yes God destroys, and he renews as well. Yes God kills, and he brings back to life again. Yes God injures, and he heals thereafter. The whole point being to discipline and through these disciplines teach and finally reconcile completely to himself. But all you see and speak about is destruction and death and suffering without what comes after, which is life and healing and comforting.
You are silencing no one, you are only depicting God as a sadomasochist and as one who hates his enemies and returns evil unto evil even though he desires that all be saved, as if he is not able to accomplish his desires but is forced by mankind to be a monster who is pained by his own actions ... The problem is you cant understand anthropomorphic language and you cant understand that Gods judgment is not separate from his love. His wrath is not separate from his mercy. These aspects of deity are not mutually exclusive but they are complimentary ... Just as any good parent disciplines their child in order to teach them and not to hurt them only. Or do you think child abuse is a good thing? You might as well say that you do if you believe Gods judgments are not for the purpose of teaching righteousness to them that are so judged, as we see that Paul makes it clear that all humanity are the offspring of God(Act 17:28-29).
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