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Old 12-07-2009, 09:35 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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First, the coming of the Son of Man (not the tribulation) is likened to the Flood. That is the Second coming is likened to the begining of the flood.

Second, Noah entered the Ark 7 Days prior to the flood.

Third, the ones taken are taken in judgment and the ones left are those that are left to enter the kingdom with Christ when He comes at the end of the Tribulation.

You want to be in Christ (the Ark) 7 years prior to the Flood (the 2nd Coming). The reason is that no one knows when the Tribulation begins. This is what Jesus ment by know one knows the day or the hour. So be ready. And when it does esp. the last 3&1/2 years there is going to be such strong deception from the enemy, so much so, that if it were possible even the elect would be decieved.

PREACHING OF THE FLOOD -------------- IN ARK 7 DAYS PRIOR TO ------------------ THE FLOOD

PREACHING OF CHRIST'S JUDGMENT ------ IN CHRIST 7 YEARS PRIOR TO ----------------- HIS RETURN

------------------------------------------TRIBULATION ----------------------------- COMING OF THE SON OF MAN

------------------------------------------KNOW ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR THE HOUR

The world did not pay attention to the preaching of Noah that Judgment was coming - hence their attitude of ambivalance by going about life as usual - eating, drinking, giving in marriage, ect. until Noah entered the Ark. And did not know until the Flood (The 2nd Coming) came and took them away.

Otherwise, you are in for some serious delusions not only from Satan but from God. For God will send a strong delusion to those who have rejected the truth. For if it were possible (and it is not) even the elect would be decieved. This why you want ot be ready to endure to the end and go through the tribulation. You should be prepared, watching, waiting, ready to die if necessary. Only if you are in Christ will you overcome the delusions and the lying signs and wonders of the enemy in that day.

Do not look for escaping the coming trial but look unto Jesus and be found in Him so that you will not be decieved in that day. BE READY!
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Old 12-07-2009, 09:53 PM
 
Location: midwest
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I appreciate your passion and can agree with the intent of your post, but some of the comments are made rather randomly. I like how you're trying to pull it all together.

It takes a very in depth analysis to compare the two periods of time that you have brought up. The only thing I can say right now is that much of the Olivet Discourse was written from a jewish perspective to jews who were asking about the destruction of the temple. Start looking into jewish writings and records about the time of Noah for more answers. I'd love to help sort it all out but am afraid I'd be on this forum forever.
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:12 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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The only major point was that the Flood was not the Tribulation as Pre-Tribers like it to be. It is the 2nd coming. And as Noah was prepared prior to the flood so we should be also.

There is not much to pull togehter and Jesus brought up the two periods not me.

The whole Bible was from a Jewish perspective - I am not sure what you are getting at. Care to elaborate?
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,959 posts, read 4,875,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
I appreciate your passion and can agree with the intent of your post, but some of the comments are made rather randomly. I like how you're trying to pull it all together.

It takes a very in depth analysis to compare the two periods of time that you have brought up..
And this site's article has done all the work. Very excellent read.

Tribulation: Will the saints depart or stay?
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:32 PM
 
Location: midwest
508 posts, read 1,024,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
The only major point was that the Flood was not the Tribulation as Pre-Tribers like it to be. It is the 2nd coming. And as Noah was prepared prior to the flood so we should be also.

There is not much to pull togehter and Jesus brought up the two periods not me.

The whole Bible was from a Jewish perspective - I am not sure what you are getting at. Care to elaborate?
OK, well, now I see your point. You are stating that the church will not live through the tribulation, correct?
Sorry I was kind of lost. Typing on two other threads at the same time!! Ultimately I think you and I agree and still stand on my previous comment, that I like your passion.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:06 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
OK, well, now I see your point. You are stating that the church will not live through the tribulation, correct?
Sorry I was kind of lost. Typing on two other threads at the same time!! Ultimately I think you and I agree and still stand on my previous comment, that I like your passion.
Sorry for the confusion but I am post-trib. The purpose of this thread was to show that the FLOOD in Matt.24 is not the Tribulation but the Second Coming Judgment. Therefore, when that happens the ones who are taken are taken in judgment not the rapture. The ones left go into the kingdom with Christ. Most of those who are believers in Christ when they enter the tribulation will not live through it but be killed, not by God's wrath but by Satan's. The ones who live until the end will be raptured/resurrected as Christ descends to earth with those who have died in Christ before His return.

This is just as Paul said in I thess.4:15-17 - '...that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord [2nd Coming] will by no means precede [that is in the resurrection] those who are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven... and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds...'
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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From the LXX

Dan 9:26 9:26 και μετα επτα και εβδομηκοντα και εξηκοντα δυο αποσταθησεται χρισμα και ουκ εσται και βασιλεια εθνων φθερει την πολιν και το αγιον μετα του χριστου και ηξει η συντελεια αυτου μετ' οργης και εως καιρου συντελειας απο πολεμου πολεμηθησεται

And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:44 PM
 
Location: midwest
508 posts, read 1,024,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Sorry for the confusion but I am post-trib. The purpose of this thread was to show that the FLOOD in Matt.24 is not the Tribulation but the Second Coming Judgment. Therefore, when that happens the ones who are taken are taken in judgment not the rapture. The ones left go into the kingdom with Christ. Most of those who are believers in Christ when they enter the tribulation will not live through it but be killed, not by God's wrath but by Satan's. The ones who live until the end will be raptured/resurrected as Christ descends to earth with those who have died in Christ before His return.

This is just as Paul said in I thess.4:15-17 - '...that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord [2nd Coming] will by no means precede [that is in the resurrection] those who are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven... and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds...'
Ah ha, so now I see the reason why I was losing you. Because I disagree! Well that's too bad.

you're making a case that if there is any kind of saving rapture that takes place, it will be after every judgement that God pours out on earth... I'm not with ya on that and i think your quotations are flawed.

to keep my rebuttal concise, try looking up the following and we can keep talking... you need to understand the context and clarification of Pauls writing. look up 1 thess 5 :9. Also read into the promise to the church given in Rev 3:10. then explain to me what Paul was meaning when he described Christ as a thief in the night - what will he be stealing???
and why???

And sciotamicks, I don't know what version of the Bible you are pulling passages from, but they are not correct translations. the correct phrase is 'the end will come like a flood', not be cut off with a flood.
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:30 AM
 
Location: Canada
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Matt 24 on the "one taken, one left" is talking about the death toll... 1 in 2 people will perish when the 7 bowls or vials containing the wrath of God are poured out. It will happen after the 1st Resurrection and Rapture at the end of the Great Tribulation.

It will be like in the days of Noah, when the elect are taken out (raptured), the judgment comes on those who have the Mark of the Beast. They are living a normal life... eating, drinking, getting married or giving in marriage, until the wrath came. The disciples asked Jesus where are they "taken" and he answered where the eagles gather, meaning their carcasses will be eaten by the eagles (vultures).
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:01 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaraZoteBuccaneer View Post
Ah ha, so now I see the reason why I was losing you. Because I disagree! Well that's too bad.

you're making a case that if there is any kind of saving rapture that takes place, it will be after every judgement that God pours out on earth... I'm not with ya on that and i think your quotations are flawed.

to keep my rebuttal concise, try looking up the following and we can keep talking... you need to understand the context and clarification of Pauls writing. look up 1 thess 5 :9. Also read into the promise to the church given in Rev 3:10. then explain to me what Paul was meaning when he described Christ as a thief in the night - what will he be stealing???
and why???

And sciotamicks, I don't know what version of the Bible you are pulling passages from, but they are not correct translations. the correct phrase is 'the end will come like a flood', not be cut off with a flood.
ZZB; I have already looked into those verses and they do not support a pre-trib viewpoint. They have been dealt with recently on some of the other threads, but I will give a genaeral sense once more.

The thief motif is not for the righteous but the unrighteous. Christ does not come for His own as a thief. It is to them that are not watching, waiting, prepared for Christ's return. Read I Thess.5 and notice the transition from 'you' to 'them' in Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians. Notice that Paul equates the Day of the Lord with the thief motif. He also says that christians know perfectly about this day. He also says that christians are not in darkness so that this day should overtake them as a thief. Jesus is not coming for His elect at the begining of the tribulation as a thief. Note Rev.16:15 - Christ comes as a thief at the end of the tribulation not the begining. So the context clearly puts the Day of the Lord at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes as a thief to rob the wicked not the righteous. Now 5:9 is talking about that final day of judgment not the tribulation.

As far as Rev.3:10: I posted the below info on another thread as well.

First: It does not say that God would keep them from the world or the Tribulation; it says that God would keep them from ‘the hour of temptation.’ This is in line with Jesus’ prayer in Jn.17:15. The focus is not so much the hour but the temptation. In other words God is keeping them from what the hour represents not an ‘hour’ per-se; it’s a promise to keep them from the temptation of a particular time not to keep them from a moment of time called an ‘hour’ just so they don’t have to experience anymore time.[1] It is the power of God’s Spirit and promise that they overcome the temptation not a physical removal from a temporal-space-time. Certainly God does not have to remove them to protect, guard, or watch over them in regard to this temptation. So we could say God would ‘…guard you from the hour; that is the trial which is coming upon…’ or simply ‘…the hour; the trial…’

Second: The word keep does not necessitate a removal even if the preposition ἐκ is used in conjunction with it. The word can and does have the idea of to ‘guard, to keep watch over, and even to continue in a given state.’ Even though saints may have to endure the tribulation/temptation of the enemy (not God’s wrath but mans) they will be protected concerning the temptation. The temptation that will come upon the whole world is probably the deception that will prevail through the lying signs and wonders used to deceive people (II Thess.2:1-12) – but certainly not the elect (Matt.24:24).

Third: The preposition ἐκ is very flexible as can be seen by an examination of any Greek grammar. It can even have the idea of ‘because of’ (Jn.6:66) ‘Because of this [what Jesus said] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.’ The word for ‘time’ is not in the text – ‘from this (ἐκ) time…’ Now I am not saying that this is what the translation should be in Revelation but I am showing the flexibility of this preposition.

In general it has the force of 1) Source: out of, from 2) Separation: away from, from 3) Temporal: from, from [this point]… on 4) Cause: because of 5) Partitive (substituting for a Partitive gen.): of 6) Means: by, from.[2] Now note the verb that it is used with, it says nothing about removal but protection as is seen in its parallel about the Church of Philadelphia guarding and protecting the word of Christ’s perseverance. This preposition can also have the idea of ‘since’ as in a marker of time from a point in the past. There is no necessity for spatial or time removal. Jesus could be saying that He ‘…also will guard you, since or because of the hour of trial is/that is coming upon the whole world.’

Fourth: Does this mean that those to whom Jesus spoke to in the other churches who were not patiently enduring would experience the temptation/trial? Nowhere in the letters to the seven churches does it explicitly say that God would keep them from the tribulation. In fact there are hints that they will go through it and those that overcome will be rewarded with certain blessings. Note 2:9-10 - now this is not the ‘The Tribulation’ per-se but notice what God allows them to suffer even unto death (cf.v.13) – not by His hands but by the Devil’s; 25-27, notice that it says to hold fast till I cometill the end… and then they will be given power over the nations and rule and reign with Him; 3:3 – once again here is the thief motif, which we know speaks of the great Day of the Lord when He judges the nations and the armies gathered at Armageddon. Notice that those who keep His word will not be taken by surprise when the Lord comes upon them as a thief - that is plundered and judged. This is what Paul said exactly.

[1] See ‘Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics’ Daniel B. Wallace, p.94-96. The grammatical construction fits what is called the Genitive in Simple Opposition, where ‘…both nouns are in the same case (Gen.) and the appositive (Trial) does not name a specific example that falls within the category named by the noun to which it is related (hour). Rather, it simply gives a different designation that either clarifies who [or what] is the one [or thing] named or shows a different relation to the rest of the clause than what the first noun by itself could display. Both words thus have the same referent, though they describe it in different terms.’

[2] Ibid. pp.371-372; Also note, pp.123; 359-360; Page 123, he talks about κ + gen. expressing the beginning of time (cf., e.g., Mark 9:21 - ‘from childhood’). The point is, once again the meaning is flexible. On pages 359-360, he says regarding spatial functions of prepositions – What is the value of this discussion for exegesis? It is simply that too often prepositions are analyzed simplistically, etymologically, and without consideration for the verb to which they are connected. Prepositions are often treated in isolation, as though their ontological meaning were still completely intact. Note for example, the following illustration.’ He then discusses John 1:18 and then list other texts impacted by the discussion including Rev.3:10.
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