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This I can agree with. I agree it doesn't necessarily mean all people at the same time will acknowledge Christ. Each in their own order is a more likely meaning.
But if this is your view, then you are left with the problem that the bible also says every tongue will swear allegiance(Isa 45:23 - NASB version). Swearing allegiance is talking about a willing oath of loyalty, a joyful acceptance. This indicates ALL willingly acknowledge Christ and be loyal to Him.
Lego,
The Isaiah prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, with Paul's imminent expectation and discourse including the phrase twice in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10. Justification of salvation has been completed in the ROTD and Living, the marriage of the Lamb and His People, the wife, the bride.
Now what we are experiencing is nothing prophetic in any way, just perpetual Abrahamic blessings bestowed on those that embrace Him, Christ Jesus - Heb 10:14 - because Christ has already perfected that sanctification for us and made it a realization at the close of the Mosaic Age.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian,
The secret Paul gave was hushed in the times of the eons and not revealed until given to Paul.
Alot of what Paul wrote about was a secret until he revealed it:
1Cor. 2:7 but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory,
The wisdom God gave to Paul was designated for us before Genesis 1:1, before the eons.
Here is another secret God gave to Paul which was never revealed to any of the Old Testament writers:
Eph 1:9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)"
Eph 1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth"
The body of Christ believers will go out amongst the heavens and head up all in the Christ in the heavens. This is unheard of in the whole O.T.
Eph 3:3 for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief,
Eph 3:4 by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ,
Eph 3:5 which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit"
The above secret was never revealed to anyone in the Old Testament. Only the holy apostles and prophets of the uncircumcision believers was this secret given to. The secret had to be made known to Paul only by direct revelation. And it was Paul who revealed it to Christ's holy apostles and prophets of the N.T.
Eph 3:9 and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all,
It was given only to Paul to enlighten all as to the secret. This secret was never revealed to anyone but Paul for it was concealed from the eons.
There are other secrets given to Paul for us of the nations.
But the main secret that puts the nails in the coffin of Preterism is the Romans 11:25,26 and 16:25 secret.
Christ cannot come back until the complement of the nations enters.
All Israel was never saved in 70 A.D. which is what is supposed to happen when Christ returns.
Christ does not come back in people's imaginations as the Preterist dreams. When He returns the whole world will know it. No one knew He returned in 70 A.D. except this New Age Preterism movement and even then they only think He came back in people's imaginations.
The Isaiah prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, with Paul's imminent expectation and discourse including the phrase twice in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10. Justification of salvation has been completed in the ROTD and Living, the marriage of the Lamb and His People, the wife, the bride.
Now what we are experiencing is nothing prophetic in any way, just perpetual Abrahamic blessings bestowed on those that embrace Him, Christ Jesus - Heb 10:14 - because Christ has already perfected that sanctification for us and made it a realization at the close of the Mosaic Age.
Blessings,
SciotaMicks
False.
Rom 14:10 Now why are you judging your brother? Or why are you also scorning your brother? For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God, (11) for it is written: Living am I, the Lord is saying, For to Me shall bow every knee, And every tongue shall be acclaiming God!" (12) Consequently, then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God."
Paul quotes Romans 14:11 in the context of 14:10. The only time all believers go before the dais of Christ is when all believers, living and dead (the dead as a whole group must be raised from the dead first) and the dead made alive meet the living in the air as one complete group and then they, as a group go before the dais of Christ.
Therefore Romans 14:11 has not taken place yet and neither has Philippians 2:9-11.
The scriptures speak of a time when there shall be no more war ... A time when the nations shall destroy their weapons and turn them into plow shears ... When the lamb will lay down with the lion, and the child will take up asps and not be harmed.
Preterists think this is all symbolic, but then again they believe almost all prophecy is symbolic for that matter ... That is to say any and all prophecy that has not yet been obviously manifestly fulfilled in the actual world.
All these prophecies are said to be figurative just so the time words in the new testament can refer to what humans consider soon, as men count soon ... When Peter himself said that not to count God as being slack as men count slackness... That is to say that we are not to understand Gods timing as the timing of men.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-31-2009 at 11:38 AM..
There are so many things that the scriptures say will happen which preterists deny. The scriptures say that God will make Israel the head of all the nations on earth, preterists deny this will ever happen.
The bible says as i noted above that all nations will be subjected to Israel and the rule of Christ and will destroy their weapons and make them into plow shears. The Scriptures prophecy that every tongue of every kindred of every nation shall confess Christ is lord and will turn to him and worship him and sing his name with Joy, on earth ... The bible tells us to pray that Gods will is done on earth even as it is done in heaven and the bible clearly tells us it is Gods wills that all repent and turn to him and be saved. Preterists do not believe this will ever happen literally on earth as it is plainly prophesied that it will. There are so many facets of future prophecy that the preterists deny just to understand a few time words according to how men reckon time ... In my opinion much of it due to a lack of faith that God will ever actually do theses things in any real sense. I believe many preterists are just men and women who where one time futurists who got tired of waiting for Christ and being disappointed and looking foolish ... Disenchanted Christians who whose hopes having been deferred have had their hearts sickened. As it is written, hoped deferred makes the heart Grow sick. I do understand how they feel ...
There are so many things that the scriptures say will happen which preterists deny. The scriptures say that God will make Israel the head of all the nations on earth, preterists deny this will ever happen.
The bible says as i noted above that all nations will be subjected to Israel and the rule of Christ and will destroy their weapons and make them into plow shears. The Scriptures prophecy that every tongue of every kindred of every nation shall confess Christ is lord and will turn to him and worship him and sing his name with Joy, on earth ... The bible tells us to pray that Gods will is done on earth even as it is done in heaven and the bible clearly tells us it is Gods wills that all repent and turn to him and be saved. Preterists do not believe this will ever happen literally on earth as it is plainly prophesied that it will. There are so many facets of future prophecy that the preterists deny just to understand a few time words according to how men reckon time ... In my opinion much of it due to a lack of faith that God will ever actually do theses things in any real sense. I believe many preterists are just men and women who where one time futurists who got tired of waiting for Christ and being disappointed and looking foolish ... Disenchanted Christians who whose hopes having been deferred have had their hearts sickened. As it is written, hoped deferred makes the heart Grow sick. I do understand how they feel ...
Though I believe a lot of things have been fulfilled in the past (does that make me partial preterist) some things are just hard to reconcile with preterism. But you can`t really debate with a preterist. Because as you said,EVERYTHING is spiritual or symbolic. So when you quote scripture that obviously hasn`t happened yet, they will say it`s spiritual or symbolic. Of course they admit the OT prophecies literally came true. But NT prophecies are different. Most of them only have spiritual or symbolic meanings. I guess they will say because Jesus talked of spirtual things. While I believe some things do have spiritual meanings,I think there is usually a physical literal meaning that mirrors it. But these debates with preterism I doubt will ever be fruitful, because they have an answer for the things that obviously haven`t happened yet. They will say it already happened in the spiritual realm. Noone saw it. So how can you debate with that logic? You can`t.
It`s one of those agree to disagree scenarios.
Though I believe a lot of things have been fulfilled in the past (does that make me partial preterist) some things are just hard to reconcile with preterism. But you can`t really debate with a preterist. Because as you said,EVERYTHING is spiritual or symbolic. So when you quote scripture that obviously hasn`t happened yet, they will say it`s spiritual or symbolic. Of course they admit the OT prophecies literally came true. But NT prophecies are different. Most of them only have spiritual or symbolic meanings. I guess they will say because Jesus talked of spirtual things. While I believe some things do have spiritual meanings,I think there is usually a physical literal meaning that mirrors it. But these debates with preterism I doubt will ever be fruitful, because they have an answer for the things that obviously haven`t happened yet. They will say it already happened in the spiritual realm. Noone saw it. So how can you debate with that logic? You can`t.
It`s one of those agree to disagree scenarios.
Good points spm62, Ironmaw, and Eusebius.
Like you spm62, I also see many things in scripture that have already been fulfilled.
But there are so many other things that cannot logically be said to have already been fulfilled... every knee bowing, the end of all war, Christ returning triumphantly so all see... Preterism falls apart, but it seems the full preterists cannot acknowledge this for some reason.
I believe both strict preterism and strict futurism are incorrect... we must interpret what the scripture actually says instead of assuming past-only or future-only.
For example revelations speaks of things that must pass soon or quickly (sounds like preterism), but also speaks of things that don't seem to have happened yet. But specifically, at the beginning of Revelations, we learn it is the revelation of Jesus Christ that is, was, and will be! Thus indicating, past, present, AND future application/interpretation. Since revelations is symbolic/spiritual, the prohpecies in it can be directly applied to our present day lives.
If we force everything into a preterist view, it becomes silly to claim that every knee bowed in 70 AD when clearly I did not bow my knee in 70 AD; therefore every knee did not really bow in 70 AD. Therefore preterists must now redefine the verse to not really mean "every knee". etc.
The Isaiah prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, with Paul's imminent expectation and discourse including the phrase twice in Rom 14:11 and Phil 2:10. Justification of salvation has been completed in the ROTD and Living, the marriage of the Lamb and His People, the wife, the bride.
Now what we are experiencing is nothing prophetic in any way, just perpetual Abrahamic blessings bestowed on those that embrace Him, Christ Jesus - Heb 10:14 - because Christ has already perfected that sanctification for us and made it a realization at the close of the Mosaic Age.
Blessings,
SciotaMicks
Yes I realize that is what you believe, but I don't understand WHY you believe that.
It becomes illogical and silly. How can you honestly say with a straight face that every knee bowed in 70 AD, when quite clearly you and I did not bow our knee in 70 AD. Even if you limit to only all those who were alive at or before 70 AD, then what do you do about the other half of the verse in Isa 45:23?
As a reminder, it says EVERYONE swears allegiance to God! Or do you limit "every knee" and "every tongue" to only to a select few? In which case you have radically transformed the meaning of "every" to "few/some".
Phil 2:9-11 is very clear it is everyone, everyone who has ever existed. To deny it is to deny plain scripture, in which case, you may as well throw your bible in the garbage.
Like you spm62, I also see many things in scripture that have already been fulfilled.
But there are so many other things that cannot logically be said to have already been fulfilled... every knee bowing, the end of all war, Christ returning triumphantly so all see... Preterism falls apart, but it seems the full preterists cannot acknowledge this for some reason.
I believe both strict preterism and strict futurism are incorrect... we must interpret what the scripture actually says instead of assuming past-only or future-only.
For example revelations speaks of things that must pass soon or quickly (sounds like preterism), but also speaks of things that don't seem to have happened yet. But specifically, at the beginning of Revelations, we learn it is the revelation of Jesus Christ that is, was, and will be! Thus indicating, past, present, AND future application/interpretation. Since revelations is symbolic/spiritual, the prohpecies in it can be directly applied to our present day lives.
If we force everything into a preterist view, it becomes silly to claim that every knee bowed in 70 AD when clearly I did not bow my knee in 70 AD; therefore every knee did not really bow in 70 AD. Therefore preterists must now redefine the verse to not really mean "every knee". etc.
WHEN DID ALL THE WARs STOP?
The problem with Revelations applying to us is that it was future to John and soon to John as well.. That does not mean that it applies to a far away time such as the 21st century. But after John wrote it and soon.... That fits better with a 70-150 AD time frame but by no means can you literally state it is soon if it would occur now...
So either you take it at face value that what God said would occur quickly yet future to John or you dismiss the time references or spiritualize them.
I prefer to assume that God did what he said he would and Jesus returned.
AND reading the accounts of historians about the time from 40 AD until and beyond the Destruction of Jerusalem you will see that it is Revelation played out almost exactly.
Though I believe a lot of things have been fulfilled in the past (does that make me partial preterist) some things are just hard to reconcile with preterism. But you can`t really debate with a preterist. Because as you said,EVERYTHING is spiritual or symbolic. So when you quote scripture that obviously hasn`t happened yet, they will say it`s spiritual or symbolic. Of course they admit the OT prophecies literally came true. But NT prophecies are different. Most of them only have spiritual or symbolic meanings. I guess they will say because Jesus talked of spirtual things. While I believe some things do have spiritual meanings,I think there is usually a physical literal meaning that mirrors it. But these debates with preterism I doubt will ever be fruitful, because they have an answer for the things that obviously haven`t happened yet. They will say it already happened in the spiritual realm. Noone saw it. So how can you debate with that logic? You can`t.
It`s one of those agree to disagree scenarios.
Exactly ... the scriptures say the we have the sure word of prophecy to help our faith. Yet preterists take NT prophecies and and say it was all fulfilled symbolically in the destruction of the temple or what have you, which means that there is nothing sure about prophecy at all, because it esacpaed almost every chrstian in the the times just following the apostles. The only church father i have read that put for a preterist view was Eusebius and that was three centuries after the destruction of the temple.Look at every earlier church father and they are all still referring to a future fulfillment of the resurrection, and return of Christ, and the gathering together of all things in Christ. If preterism is true, God has a ways of confusing his believers. Youd think polycarp who was Johns disciple would have mentioned that the resurrection had already taken place or that Christ had already returned ... But he didn't, in fact he was looking forward to it ...
See the Didache 10:5; 16:1ff (first century); Ignatius; Trallians 9:2; Smyrnaens 2:1; 6:1; Letter to Polycarp 3:2 (early second century); Polycarp 2:1; 6:2; 7:1. See also Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr.
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