Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works (Israel, Isaac)
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Actually, they are related. Since salvation is by one single act of placing your trust in Christ for salvation, that one act of trust-faith-belief-dependence on Christ, secures your salvation forever. You have eternal security and can do nothing to lose that. Works and sin have no bearing on it.
God is a God of grace. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross. God says trust in Him. Not in yourself and your efforts.
I would agree with you Mike with the exception of the bold....but need to go to work.
I'm curious to know Mike if there is some standard or some central clearinghouse for OSASers where that "act of faith in Christ" is defined or judged so believers in OSAS can know for sure that they have done what is required by your doctrine to be among those apparently very few persons who will not burn forever?
Can you enlighten us on that, or does it not matter what people do as long as they simply think they've done the right thing and actually completed that "non-meritorious act"? (I understand that JW's for example believe that only 144,000 will be saved, and those who are among that number of lucky ones will just know inside that they've been saved? Maybe I've got that wrong, any JW here is welcome to correct me. Is your belief somewhat similar to that of the Jehovah Witnesses, if I got theirs correct?)
What did you do personally that persuaded you that you were from that moment on saved forever regardless of what you might do with the rest of your life?
When I say 'act' of faith, I understand what I mean by it. But I should realize that it confuses the 'works' crowd. One non-meritorious 'moment' or 'expression' of faith would be a better way of stating it.The word of God makes it clear that faith is not a work. There is no merit in faith. The merit is in the object of your faith. The object of faith in salvation is Jesus Christ.
What did I do? I Believed the word of God.
Acts 16:31'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved.'
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18''He who believes in Him is not judged;he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 11:25 ''Jesus said to her, ''I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, 26) and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Understand what Romans 8:1 says. ''There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus (the verse ends here. Some translations add the words from the last half of verse 4. That was a copyist error in copying the manuscript.) 2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.3) For what the Law could NOT do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did; sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4) in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit ( the difference between spirituality and carnality). 6) For the mind that is set on the flesh is death (not spiritual death, not the second death, but temporal death. Being out of fellowship. Compare with Eph. 5:14-18), but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace.
IF you want to understand eternal security then study the information at this link.
Return to the original post and study the information in the links that I provided.
What does Eph. 2:2-9, Titus 3:5, Isa 64:6 tell you about works. About human righteousness?
Grace is NOT what Mormonism claims it to be.
Ne.25:23 'For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO.' This is totally contradictory to the Word of God.
What does Romans 11:6 tell you about grace? 'But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.'
Moderator cut: off topic
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-14-2010 at 01:06 PM..
Reason: Please donot take this topic into an arguement on the book of Mormon..
Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) is simply unbelief in Christ. Jesus was performing miracles through the power of God the Holy Spirit. But the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of performing those miracles by means of Satan. Therefore they were denying that Christ was who He said He was. The unpardonable sin is failure to believe in Christ. That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for their sin of unbelief. But since the work of Christ on the Cross is applied only to those who believe in Him, a failure to believe in Him results in remaining under condemnation. Jesus states it in John 8:24."I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
I'll comment on just this one:
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghostshall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32
The scripture very plainly states that the unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the HOLY GHOST not against Jesus Christ! And it plainly states that such a sin is unforgiveable.
I understand that accepting what the writer of that scripture actually wrote would be contrary to the doctrine you promote, so you have done what a lot of people do, you have spun the words plainly written into what you only imagine and hope the writer intended to convey.
That's a common thing for people stuck on theology and dogma to do.
As I see it, even those who have actually walked and talked with Jesus Christ (have the witness of Jesus Christ) are still capable of falling away and being forgiven. (Even Peter denied him.) But to deny the Holy Ghost after He has infused every particle of one's being with His witness that Jesus is the Christ would be comparable to denying that the sun is shining when standing outside on a cloudless summer's day at noon with one's eyes wide open! That special witness of the Holy Ghost if once obtained and then denied becomes the "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" that is written of in Matthew and that is plainly stated as being unforgiveable.
Matthew 12: 31-32 clearly differentiates between the two with the words:
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him..."
But accepting what Matthew actually wrote would cast doubt on the doctrine you so dearly want to believe in and to aggressively promote to others on pain of burning in hell forever if they don't believe as you do. That's why, with respect, in my opinion what you are doing is potentially deceitful and dangerous, and that's why I continue to feel that I should express my views each time you open a new OSAS thread.
As I see it, there's a huge difference between believing in something because you are persuaded it's true even though many others disagree, and forcefully pushing your belief onto others by creating fears in possibly tender trusting hearts that they will be lost from their Heavenly Father forever if they disagree with you! (Which is what in my view you are trying to do.)
Believe as you will Mike, but I think you would be well advised to temper that belief with an awareness that the contrasting beliefs of others who are just as sincere and just as intelligent and just as knowledgeable followers of Jesus Christ are just as valid as yours.
Moderator cut: personal and insulting
Enjoy the day.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-14-2010 at 06:45 PM..
Reason: Do not post personal opinions of posters sometimes it is taken as an attack
Then we're all (except the atheists amongst us) saved, no problem!
But my guess is what you mean is that you believed your own or your mentors' interpretation of what's written in the bible... (Something like 38,000 Christian denominations attest to the fact that it's not quite as simple as your statement makes it out to be!)
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghostshall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32
The scripture very plainly states that the unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the HOLY GHOST not against Jesus Christ! And it plainly states that such a sin is unforgiveable.
Well, Justamere, I see that we agree on something. I think you are 100% correct in your reading of the text.
I would just add this: The unpardonable sin is not unbelief because if it were, nobody would be saved. How many times had we all rejected Christ (i.e., disbelieved) prior to actually being converted? If this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is denial of Jesus Christ, then all of us are unpardonable--except for those of us who came out of the womb believing in Christ.
However, I don't think the passage about the unpardonable sin can be used logically against the doctrine of eternal security.
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghostshall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32
The scripture very plainly states that the unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the HOLY GHOST not against Jesus Christ! And it plainly states that such a sin is unforgiveable.
I understand that accepting what the writer of that scripture actually wrote would be contrary to the doctrine you promote, so you have done what a lot of people do, you have spun the words plainly written into what you only imagine and hope the writer intended to convey.
That's a common thing for people stuck on theology and dogma to do.
As I see it, even those who have actually walked and talked with Jesus Christ (have the witness of Jesus Christ) are still capable of falling away and being forgiven. (Even Peter denied him.) But to deny the Holy Ghost after He has infused every particle of one's being with His witness that Jesus is the Christ would be comparable to denying that the sun is shining when standing outside on a cloudless summer's day at noon with one's eyes wide open! That special witness of the Holy Ghost if once obtained and then denied becomes the "blasphemy against the Holy Ghost" that is written of in Matthew and that is plainly stated as being unforgiveable.
Matthew 12: 31-32 clearly differentiates between the two with the words:
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven him..."
But accepting what Matthew actually wrote would cast doubt on the doctrine you so dearly want to believe in and to aggressively promote to others on pain of burning in hell forever if they don't believe as you do. That's why, with respect, in my opinion what you are doing is potentially deceitful and dangerous, and that's why I continue to feel that I should express my views each time you open a new OSAS thread.
As I see it, there's a huge difference between believing in something because you are persuaded it's true even though many others disagree, and forcefully pushing your belief onto others by creating fears in possibly tender trusting hearts that they will be lost from their Heavenly Father forever if they disagree with you! (Which is what in my view you are trying to do.)
Believe as you will Mike, but I think you would be well advised to temper that belief with an awareness that the contrasting beliefs of others who are just as sincere and just as intelligent and just as knowledgeable followers of Jesus Christ are just as valid as yours.
In my opinion you are beyond discussion of contrasting beliefs here, and because of your frequent aggressive threats of hell fire, are into propaganda.
That's just the way I see it, I don't think I am being rude or against CD's TOS, but I suppose we'll soon find out if I'm out of line if this thread is once again closed, and if so, my apologies to all who were enjoying it.
[mod/edit[/mod]
Enjoy the day.
You read and yet you do not comprehend. In rejecting the fact that Christ was performing the miracles under the ministry of the Holy Spirit and instead claiming that Christ was performing the miracles by means of Satan, they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. But it was tantamount to rejection of Christ. It is a simple matter to do some research on it. Mark 3:22-30 makes it more clear. In verse 30 it says, ''because they wre saying, 'He (Christ) has an unclean spirit.'' They were rejecting that Christ was the Messiah. And as long as they rejected Christ, they could not be forgiven.
Well, Justamere, I see that we agree on something. I think you are 100% correct in your reading of the text.
I would just add this: The unpardonable sin is not unbelief because if it were, nobody would be saved. How many times had we all rejected Christ (i.e., disbelieved) prior to actually being converted? If this blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is denial of Jesus Christ, then all of us are unpardonable--except for those of us who came out of the womb believing in Christ.
However, I don't think the passage about the unpardonable sin can be used logically against the doctrine of eternal security.
No. It was only possible to commit the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit while Christ was on the earth. Jesus Christ was performing His miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. But the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of performing those miracles through the power of Satan. In doing so, they were denying that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The Savior. And as long as they denied that Christ was the Messiah, in other words, as long as they continued to reject Him as Savior, they could not be saved. They could not be forgiven (the unpardonable sin) as long as they continued in unbelief.
Now that Jesus Christ is not physically on the earth, it is not possible to commit the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. But the unpardonable sin is still rejection of Christ as Savior. John 8:24. ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.
Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Matthew 12:22 and Mark 3:22-30.
Look at these two verses.
Mark 3:22 'And the scribes were saying, ''He is possessed by Beelzebul,'' and ''He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.''
Mark 3:28 ''Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29) but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin 28) BECAUSE they were saying, ''He has an unclean spirit.''
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I would agree with you Mike with the exception of the bold....but need to go to work.
I think you are 100% correct in your reading of the text. 
