Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But I was not looking for links to your mentors' or anyone else's opinions, I was asking you to let those who are following this thread know your personal thoughts about the two questions I asked you to respond to. I think we are all interested in knowing what you have to say because some of us question if there is any common sense involved in the dark doctrine you teach that most of God's children will be forced to burn forever, most not even knowing why or what they might have done to offend a loving and just Heavenly Parent...
Please share your personal thoughts, thanks.
1. Do you believe that God is loving, just, no respecter of persons, and knows all things?
2. If so (using common sense) WHY would such a loving and just God create billions and billions of spirit children each made in His own image and likeness knowing that He was just going to throw (in your belief) almost all of them (including helpless innocent infants) into a fiery pit to suffer there forever for no fault of their own?
One thing I can say about your common sense question listed in #2. God does not throw innocent children into a fiery pit. There is an age of accountability for children when they are able to distinguish right from wrong or when they are able to choose or reject Christ. Children under that age are with Christ and will go to Heaven.
Why wouldn't you know that answer? Just curious?
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-12-2010 at 03:12 PM..
I don't think that Mike is saying that a true believer simply is saved and never should follow Christ, should never be obedient or that there won't be fruit in that person's life as a result of a transformed heart?
I believe that Mike is JUST talking about salvation. Being truly saved results in a changed heart, different motivation and the presence of the Holy Spirit resulting in good works.
I believer you would be wrong about your assessment of Mike for from his very own words:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That's right legalist. Once someone believes in Christ for salvation, they are saved even if they turn around and reject Christ after having accepted Him as Savior. And it is amazing. This is something that people such as yourself will never understand.
According to Mike you don't even have to stay committed to Christ and can outright reject him....but gosh darn it he's still gonna save ya anyway.....and that is the biggest crock of poopie I've seen him post yet....not to mention all the other false and misleading teaching he purports.
You refuse to answer the questions then. Do they make you uncomfortable at all, or are you ok with being the son of a just loving God but one who knows that (as you believe) it won't be long before He gets to throw almost all of His children into a lake of fire and then walk away from their screams and just leave them there to burn forever for no valid reason whatsoever?
----
Please share your personal thoughts, thanks.
1. Do you believe that God is loving, just, no respecter of persons, and knows all things?
2. If so (using common sense) WHY would such a loving and just God create billions and billions of spirit children each made in His own image and likeness knowing that He was just going to throw (in your belief) almost all of them (including helpless innocent infants) into a fiery pit to suffer there forever for no fault of their own?
Your statement reveals a complete and total lack of understanding anything about God.
I am telling you to find out all about why man was created and why most people will not be saved. And by the way, God did not create billions and billions of spirit children. Another mormon non Biblical teaching. No one is born as a child of God. We are all born spiritually dead and must be born again into the family of God through faith in Christ. Moderator cut: rude
Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-12-2010 at 03:17 PM..
Nope, once again you are going beyond Mike's topic about "Salvation".
The bible says that even the demons believe in the Word and they shutter. It doesn't say that they recieve or accept the gift that Christ has to offer... They reject it, stomp on it, mock it and despise it.
James 2:19 You believe that God is one: you do well. So do the demons believe and shudder.
I don't think that Mike is saying that a true believer simply is saved and never should follow Christ, should never be obedient or that there won't be fruit in that person's life as a result of a transformed heart?
I believe that Mike is JUST talking about salvation. Being truly saved results in a changed heart, different motivation and the presence of the Holy Spirit resulting in good works.
There is much misunderstanding and presumption on this thread. Stick to the topic...don't read into something that is not there. The topic is salvation not the result of salvation. That would be another thread.
Exactly Raelyn. But people don't seem to want to understand the difference. And I don't know how many times I have made the distinction on this and other threads between salvation and your spiritual life after salvation. People just want to blur them together and make it into a works based salvation which isn't salvation at all.
...Nope, once again you are going beyond Mike's topic about "Salvation"...The topic is salvation not the result of salvation. That would be another thread.
I understand that you are a huge devotee of Mike's and want to support and protect him as much as you can, but to be fair to everyone else, the topic is not just the few words in the title but is also the entire contents of the opening post. In this case the op is very long and covers a host of potential individual threads. As I understand it, anything written in the op is on topic and open for discussion.
Here's a small sample from the op of this thread, plus there are a whole lot of scriptures that Mike interprets, each of his interpretations arbitrary and subject to discussion, and Mike provides links to the opinions of others, each opinion arbitrary and open to discussion:
1. The Word of God
2. salvation is neither earned or maintained by ANY work on the part of man.
3. no work of man can measure up to His perfect holiness
4. what God thinks of human righteousness.
5. When God looks at the believer in Christ, He sees ONLY His perfect righteousness. Because of the perfect and finished work of Christ on the Cross the sin problem has been taken out of the way.
6. The work of Christ on the Cross is complete. It is finished. Every single sin in the history of the human race, past, present, and future has ALREADY been paid for.
7. God requires us to only accept His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. There is no merit in our faith. The merit is in the object of our faith.
8. We are NEVER told to do anything accept to believe in Christ.
9. It is the works of the unbeliever by which he is judged and condemned to the eternal lake of fire.
10. Mark is not telling us that we must be baptized in order to be saved.
11 Matthew does NOT teach that works are the basis of salvation.
12. People who don't understand the difference between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification confuse salvation with the spiritual life after salvation.
13. Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling but is not talking about eternal salvation at all. It is talking about temporal salvation from the trials and difficulties of life after salvation.
14. It must be understood that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and that you can never lose your salvation.
15. It must also be understood that this is NOT a license to sin.
16. Doctrine of "Rebound"
17. Failure to obey God and grow up spiritually does not and cannot cause you to lose your salvation.
18. The last thing that I am going to say is this. And the works crowd had better pay attention. You are either ENTIRELY trusting in and depending on Christ for your salvation, or you are trusting in and depending on your works, your efforts to earn your salvation.
19. etc.
So please don't try to undermine what others write that is unfavorable to your cause just because YOU happen to think it's somehow "off topic" thanks.
One thing I can say about your common sense question listed in #2. God does not throw innocent children into a fiery pit. There is an age of accountability for children when they are able to distinguish right from wrong or when they are able to choose or reject Christ. Children under that age are with Christ and will go to Heaven.
Why wouldn't you know that answer? Just curious?
I agree with you, that is my belief as well, but I still don't know if it's Mike's belief, he doesn't seem to want to respond personally to my questions, maybe they make him too uncomfortable?
Your statement reveals a complete and total lack of understanding anything about God.
I am telling you to find out all about why man was created and why most people will not be saved. And by the way, God did not create billions and billions of spirit children. Another mormon non Biblical teaching. No one is born as a child of God. We are all born spiritually dead and must be born again into the family of God through faith in Christ. So mormon, if you want to know the answers then go to the link that I gave you and EDUCATE yourself. There are over 50 hours of audio lessons. If you are not interested in the truth then don't bother.
So, mormon, if you want to debate, then do it with someone else. If you want to learn something about why God created man and why many won't be saved, then do what I told you to do. It's that simple.
So you continue to refuse to respond personally to my questions and refer me to 50 hours of opinions from your mentors instead! Seems like a simple task that I have asked of you and I think most readers would like to know what you Mike personally believe about such things.
a) By the way, setting your mentors aside for a moment if you can, do you personally believe that God also throws infants and children into his burning lake of fire?
b) Are you and your mentors preaching that Satan's plan is more successful than God's plan of salvation and that the devil will lay claim to almost all of God's children in the end? Is Satan more intelligent than God in your opinion?
-----
Please share your personal thoughts, thanks.
1. Do you believe that God is loving, just, no respecter of persons, and knows all things?
2. If so (using common sense) WHY would such a loving and just God create billions and billions of spirit children each made in His own image and likeness knowing that He was just going to throw (in your belief) almost all of them (including helpless innocent infants) into a fiery pit to suffer there forever for no fault of their own?
I believer you would be wrong about your assessment of Mike for from his very own words:
According to Mike you don't even have to stay committed to Christ and can outright reject him....but gosh darn it he's still gonna save ya anyway.....and that is the biggest crock of poopie I've seen him post yet....not to mention all the other false and misleading teaching he purports.
Once you have believed in Christ for salvation, you are saved forever and there is absolutely nothing that you can do to lose your salvation. It can't be taken away from you and you can't walk away from it.
2 Tim. 2:11 'It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12) If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; (eternal rewards) if we deny Him, He also will deny us (eternal rewards, blessings, decorations, priviledges)
13) If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (Eternal security)
Romans 8:38 I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing (the believer falls into the category of any other created thing), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In the books of Romans and Galatians, Paul makes it clear that salvation is apart from works. People today who are trying to maintain their salvation through their works are no different than the people that Paul had to straighten out in the first century.
At this link is a description of the 40 grace gifts that God gives to the believer at the point of salvation which secures the salvation of the believer forever.
Once you have believed in Christ for salvation, you are saved forever and there is absolutely nothing that you can do to lose your salvation. It can't be taken away from you and you can't walk away from it.
2 Tim. 2:11 'It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12) If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; (eternal rewards) if we deny Him, He also will deny us (eternal rewards, blessings, decorations, priviledges)
13) If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (Eternal security)
Romans 8:38 I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing (the believer falls into the category of any other created thing), shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In the books of Romans and Galatians, Paul makes it clear that salvation is apart from works. People today who are trying to maintain their salvation through their works are no different than the people that Paul had to straighten out in the first century.
At this link is a description of the 40 grace gifts that God gives to the believer at the point of salvation which secures the salvation of the believer forever.
You just keep on preaching that one can reject Christ and still be saved (being numbered with the goats) and I'll continue to follow Jesus footsteps living in obedience to Gods commands (being numbered with the sheep).
I understand that you are a huge devotee of Mike's and want to support and protect him as much as you can, but to be fair to everyone else, the topic is not just the few words in the title but is also the entire contents of the opening post. In this case the op is very long and covers a host of potential individual threads. As I understand it, anything written in the op is on topic and open for discussion.
Here's a small sample from the op of this thread, plus there are a whole lot of scriptures that Mike interprets, each of his interpretations arbitrary and subject to discussion, and Mike provides links to the opinions of others, each opinion arbitrary and open to discussion:
1. The Word of God
2. salvation is neither earned or maintained by ANY work on the part of man.
3. no work of man can measure up to His perfect holiness
4. what God thinks of human righteousness.
5. When God looks at the believer in Christ, He sees ONLY His perfect righteousness. Because of the perfect and finished work of Christ on the Cross the sin problem has been taken out of the way.
6. The work of Christ on the Cross is complete. It is finished. Every single sin in the history of the human race, past, present, and future has ALREADY been paid for.
7. God requires us to only accept His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. There is no merit in our faith. The merit is in the object of our faith.
8. We are NEVER told to do anything accept to believe in Christ.
9. It is the works of the unbeliever by which he is judged and condemned to the eternal lake of fire.
10. Mark is not telling us that we must be baptized in order to be saved.
11 Matthew does NOT teach that works are the basis of salvation.
12. People who don't understand the difference between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification confuse salvation with the spiritual life after salvation.
13. Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling but is not talking about eternal salvation at all. It is talking about temporal salvation from the trials and difficulties of life after salvation.
14. It must be understood that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and that you can never lose your salvation.
15. It must also be understood that this is NOT a license to sin.
16. Doctrine of "Rebound"
17. Failure to obey God and grow up spiritually does not and cannot cause you to lose your salvation.
18. The last thing that I am going to say is this. And the works crowd had better pay attention. You are either ENTIRELY trusting in and depending on Christ for your salvation, or you are trusting in and depending on your works, your efforts to earn your salvation.
19. etc.
So please don't try to undermine what others write that is unfavorable to your cause just because YOU happen to think it's somehow "off topic" thanks.
At least that's the way I see it Raelyn...
Wow, honestly this a LONG list of subjects which I really don't have time to look into at the moment. I am ONLY responding to the original post not how the post has taken twists and turns as it progresses.
I do know one thing for certain. That Christ tells us to come to him as a little child. Children are simple, their faith is simple and it seems that there are those on this forum that want to make this issue of salvation very complicated. I believe it isn't of the Lord to do so in regards to salvation.
And another thing, salvation is a heart issue between God and the one who says they believe. If the motivation is wrong then salvation is not true or legitimate no matter what anyone claims to say. God knows our heart, he knows the life we have come from, our own personal stuggles, our backgrounds and everything that brought us to where we are. He is patient and kind and treats us all uniquely different.
The thief on the cross did NOTHING in his life that showed any kind of fruit and to those on the ground he was a hardened criminal dying for his sins, yet his conversation with Christ saved him. Why? Because he acknowledged Christ and agreed with Christ. He was totally unable at that point to do any "works". But Jesus said "on this day you shall be with me in Paradise".
Luke 23:39
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]" 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
My point is this: We are all different, unique, at different stages of our lives and it is the "motivation" or condition of our heart that Christ sees and KNOWS.
There are many that would say and think that they are "saved" when they are not.. Bottom line, are we working for something or are we receiving something which changes our hearts? That is the question that we should be asking ourselves. How is our life working for us?
If our heart is right before God and sincere and we make a mistake does He throw us into the fiery pit of hell? No, I don't believe He does because He sees our "true heart". The Bible says that the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things, who can know it? Well God knows it. We need to constantly be coming to Christ and asking for a renewed mind, a renewed heart and we need to ask God "am I interpreting your Word correctly or am I believing in false religions, man-made doctrines or anything that is NOT of you Lord"? Then we need to listen to His voice and not the voice of man. This is our own personal walk with God not someone elses.
In the end we all will give an account to God, not man. So we better do some searching apart from man.. in the Word.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The topic is salvation not the result of salvation. That would be another thread.
