Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works (belief, Holy Spirit)
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Thanks, I had a quick look at it. But in my opinion it's still the same old same old, scholars and their devotees interpreting scriptures and making highly arbitrary and sometimes dubious conclusions to try to find support in the bible for their favorite worldview or package of beliefs.
It's quite possible that I don't completely understand the OSAS doctrine because to me it is irrational and totally contrary to what Christ taught.
Or it is irrational to you because you don't completely understand it.
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Here's a bit of what Wiki says about OSAS:
Perseverance of the saints (also known by the common expression "Once Saved, Always Saved", and the relative acronym OSAS) is a Christian teaching taught in some branches of Protestantism... The doctrine appears in two different forms: (1) the traditional Calvinist doctrine..., and (2) the Free Grace or non-traditional Calvinist doctrine found in some Baptist and other evangelical churches... ..traditional Calvinist Christians tend to prefer the historical term "perseverance of the saints", which is one of the five points of Calvinism, and advocates of the Free Grace doctrine usually prefer...
The traditional Calvinist doctrine of perseverance is articulated in the Canons of Dort (chapter 5), the Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter XVII), the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith (Chapter 17), and may also be found in other Reformed Confessions.... It is, however, seen by many as the necessary consequence of Calvinism...
I actually differentiate between OSAS and PotS in a manner that the Wiki article doesn't seem to convey: OSAS is easily misinterpreted to mean that the believer can sin his heart away without any worries about salvation, whereas PotS prevents such a misunderstanding by upholding the truth that this will not happen--cannot happen because God perseveres with the believer, perfecting what he began and working in the believer to will and to do according to his (God's) good pleasure. Those who do not have any fruit, though, have no right to call themselves children of God. They thus show clear evidence that they are not born again and were never saved to begin with. So, PotS does not advocate any idea that believers can just do whatever they want and not worry about it.
I call straw man on that. I never affirmed otherwise. The issue is not whether Christ requires us to obey the commandments and to love one another. The question is whether these things are required to atone for sin in addition to Christ's blood.
In turn, I call "straw man" on your own comments. I don't think anyone on this thread is suggesting that works (other than his own) are part of Christ's atonement! That he worked out all by himself.
The issue is that OSASers tend to teach that people can still get to heaven even though by the time they die they have utterly ignored or rejected God's commandments (and in Mike's view even rejected Christ himself!)
In other words, if I understand you and your doctrine correctly, you are saying that God FORCES people to heaven just because at some point in time somewhere they did whatever it is you think people need to DO to accept Jesus Christ into their heart. (Are infants capable of doing that thing in your view? If not and they die before doing that thing, do their precious wee innocent souls go straight to hell to suffer and burn there forever? How about the billions born in times and places where they could never be exposed to your teaching? Where's the common sense in that? In my opinion the only traction you have with that is your tendency, if Mike is a valid example of OSASers, to aggressively create fears, instant damnation and eternal burning at death for all who do not believe as you do.)
Last edited by justamere10; 01-12-2010 at 12:14 PM..
You are saying that fruit (works) is evidence of salvation. That every truly saved person bears fruit, and that those without fruit/works are simply not saved.
Correct.
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I think it is possible to to be saved and have an empty resume as far as 'works' goes.
I would say it's impossible. Faith without works is dead. The author of the epistle to the Hebrews taught that the "land" that produces only thorns and thistles is worthless and will be burned. I don't see how anyone who believes and repents--which go hand in hand with one another--could live without bearing fruit.
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...then you are bearing fruit, because you serve as a walking and talking advertisement for Christ. When people see it, they want to be like you, and have what you have (faith) and maybe one day they will. All because of you. It's fruit.
I'm not so sure I agree with this, but that would be the subject for another thread altogether.
Thanks, I had a quick look at it. But in my opinion it's still the same old same old, scholars and their devotees interpreting scriptures and making highly arbitrary and sometimes dubious conclusions to try to find support in the bible for their favorite worldview or package of beliefs.
I'd be pleased to discuss your concerns about Mormon doctrine in a thread where it would be on topic Mike, but tell me:
1. Do you believe that God is loving, just, no respecter of persons, and knows all things?
2. If so (using common sense) WHY would such a loving and just God create billions and billions of spirit children each made in His own image and likeness knowing that He was just going to throw (in your belief) almost all of them (including helpless innocent infants) into a fiery pit to suffer there forever for no fault of their own?
We do, but it's likely that many of us when confronted with scholarly things that don't fit in with our personal worldview or are contradicted by the teachings of other scholars study it out for ourselves and maybe if it's of perceived consequence to our salvation take it directly to God and ask for a personal confirmation regarding the statement's truthfulness from His Holy Spirit.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
I would say it's impossible. Faith without works is dead. The author of the epistle to the Hebrews taught that the "land" that produces only thorns and thistles is worthless and will be burned. I don't see how anyone who believes and repents--which go hand in hand with one another--could live without bearing fruit.
Then define "fruit" and "works". I am not trying to turn this into a word-game but I think it is important to know what constitutes "fruit". If you confess your faith, would that be considered bearing "fruit"?
We do, but it's likely that many of us when confronted with scholarly things that don't fit in with our personal worldview or are contradicted by the teachings of other scholars study it out for ourselves and maybe if it's of perceived consequence to our salvation take it directly to God and ask for a personal confirmation regarding the statement's truthfulness from His Holy Spirit.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
I prayed for wisdom. I grew up as an pentecostal infact most of my family are pentecostal, we were taught arminianism. I am now a baptist who sides with most Calvinstic doctrines in the study of scripture with no preconceived ideas to begin with. At first there were things that were eye opening and difficult to swallow like predestination but through my study of scripture I can accept it.
Bearing fruit has no part in becoming saved. You must be saved BEFORE you can have any spiritual production. Salvation takes place in a moment of time. At the moment you place your trust in Christ for salvation, you are saved forever. Now, AFTER your salvation, whether you have any spiritual production or not depends on you. Maybe you will and maybe you won't. You must make decisions after you are saved to learn and apply Bible doctrine and thereby grow spiritually. As a result of spiritual growth, you will have spiritual production. Or fruit. No fruit means no eternal rewards. It does NOT mean no salvation. The book of James is talking about justification before men who can only see your faith by what you do. God sees your faith by your heart. Justification before God is by faith. Justification before men is by works. It does not mean that you aren't saved if you don't have any spiritual production.
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