Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works (Bible, Kingdom)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I prayed for wisdom. I grew up as an pentecostal infact most of my family are pentecostal, we were taught arminianism. I am now a baptist who sides with most Calvinstic doctrines in the study of scripture with no preconceived ideas to begin with. At first there were things that were eye opening and difficult to swallow like predestination but through my study of scripture I can accept it.
The question remains, who has the truth?
The solution is that God is CAl - Minian. The calling of God is arbitrary and sovereign. He calls whomever he wills and not all are called. However once called God provides grace that the man may be able to choose.
When it comes to sin no man has Free Will - we are all servants of sin and Satan until God calls us out of the kingdom of Satan. Once called we are able to obey by the grace of God IF we will choose to follow after Jesus.
Those whom he calls are predestined to be conformed to the nature of His Son. That does not mean they do not have a choice - it means the plan to be conformed to Jesus was predestined - not the outcome. Only a few of the many who are called will be chosen.
Ummm you realize that you are saying amen to a man who thinks that if you have ever believed in Jesus - then no matter what you do - even to the point of spitting on Jesus and rejecting Him completely - you can never be lost.
I believer you would be wrong about your assessment of Mike for from his very own words:
According to Mike you don't even have to stay committed to Christ and can outright reject him....but gosh darn it he's still gonna save ya anyway.....and that is the biggest crock of poopie I've seen him post yet....not to mention all the other false and misleading teaching he purports.
Well I am not sure what things you are referring to but I am honestly responding to this particular thread in regards to salvation ChristyGirl. For the most part everything that I have read that Mike has said I am in agreement with but just like everyone else I am sure that Mike and I don't agree on everything.
With all due respect Christygirl, people are people and "we all fall short of the Glory of God". I don't think I have EVER met a person that I agreed with 100% and even Jesus said in Matthew that he entrusted himself to no man because he knew what was in man. In other words quite to the contrary of this legalistic mindset on this thread he KNEW man was sinful.
Therefore, I glean what I can glean from each person and ignore the rest because my graciousness allows for human error.
In regards to Mike's statement that everyone seems to throw in his face.
The one about rejecting Christ and still being saved? It is once again a "heart condition". I think one can turn there back on Christ because once again we are human.
For example if you have children then you certainly must be aware that children certainly turn their backs on their parents and sometimes more often then we like... they reject us, they disobey us. Do we not love them anyway? Of course we do, we will always love our kids. Do we discipline them, draw boundaries, set rules, etc? Yes and that is what God does with His children and we are called "children of God". We are His kids, there is room for error Christygirl.
So maybe you misunderstood what Mike was trying to say. I will let him explain himself because I do not know what he met. As far as me being a fan of Mike...I am a fellow believer along with Mike, he is my brother Christygirl along with many others here.
Ummm you realize that you are saying amen to a man who thinks that if you have ever believed in Jesus - then no matter what you do - even to the point of spitting on Jesus and rejecting Him completely - you can never be lost.
Surely you would not say Amen to that....
HK
Read my post to Christygirl. I think you guys are not getting what he is saying or meaning. Sometimes it is hard to get the tone or motivation of a person with written words if you know what I mean. I believe Mike's heart is in the right place..
Salvation--> (if) spiritual growth-->more and more spiritual production (fruit)
And if there is no fruit, the branch (you) is trimmed off and thrown in the fire.
Quote:
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, so that it will be even more fruitful.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
That doesn't sound good for those who bear no fruit. And then (below) he makes clear that one must remain in him and obey his commands. One must 'stay in the Lord'. Logically, in order to stay in, one must already be in. So, he is talking to people who have been saved, yet he talks about the possibility of getting trimmed off if there is no fruit, or if they do not stay in the Lord. "remain in me, and I will remain in you". Unless I am mistaken, that means the same as "if you do not remain in me, I will not remain in you".
Doesn't that sound like a saved person can get trimmed off if
1. he does not bear fruit, or
2. does not stay in the Lord
Quote:
John 15:7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
John 15:9-10 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Exactly Raelyn. But people don't seem to want to understand the difference. And I don't know how many times I have made the distinction on this and other threads between salvation and your spiritual life after salvation. People just want to blur them together and make it into a works based salvation which isn't salvation at all.
Basically, because they do not understand love and how it works. They have a difficult time receiving something without thinking they don't have to do anything for it. Usually their lives are very "works" oriented as well which is very sad.
It took me years to grasp the context that Christ loved me for who I was...just me, sinner and all... I was covered with mud, broken, bruised and bleeding unable to walk but Christ bent down picked me up, cleaned me up and out of His love for me I was saved. He saved me...He did it all. Because he first loved me I love Him but He pursued me and showed me His love for me. And while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!!
Praise God, it is Him who is worthy and only Him!!
Read my post to Christygirl. I think you guys are not getting what he is saying or meaning. Sometimes it is hard to get the tone or motivation of a person with written words if you know what I mean. I believe Mike's heart is in the right place..
God bless.
I agree. I think this is a very interesting discussion because it shines light on the different angles of the issue. Ultimately everyone must read the Bible for themselves and pray for the wisdom to understand it.
Read my post to Christygirl. I think you guys are not getting what he is saying or meaning. Sometimes it is hard to get the tone or motivation of a person with written words if you know what I mean. I believe Mike's heart is in the right place..
God bless.
I know what he says - if you are not sure you might want to ask him yourself.
The teaching is not mike's invention - it is the common teaching of the OSAS theology and is the logical conclusion. Here are similar comments by the "respected Bible scholar and teacher" Charles Stanley. past president of the Southern Baptist convention.
Charles Stanley says that even those who stop
believing in Christ cannot be lost.
For example Stanley writes:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love
for His people is of such magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the
slightest chance of slipping from His hand." p. 74
"The unfaithful believer will not receive a special
place in the kingdom of Christ like those who are
fortunate enough to be allowed to reign with Him.
But the unfaithful believer will not lose his salvation."
p. 93
"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer
for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his
salvation is not in jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful."
p.93
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will
retain their salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.
On the contrary, Jesus warned believers that those who
were workers of iniquity (lawlessness) would be rejected
on judgement day:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them,
I NEVER KNEW YOU:
DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY" Matt 7:21-23 (KJV)
HK
Quotes taken from: "Eternal Security" by Charles Stanley
Oliver Nelson Press, A division of Thomas Nelson Publishers.
I know what he says - if you are not sure you might want to ask him yourself.
The teaching is not mike's invention - it is the common teaching of the OSAS theology and is the logical conclusion. Here are similar comments by the "respected Bible scholar and teacher" Charles Stanley. past president of the Southern Baptist convention.
Charles Stanley says that even those who stop
believing in Christ cannot be lost.
For example Stanley writes:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love
for His people is of such magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the
slightest chance of slipping from His hand." p. 74
"The unfaithful believer will not receive a special
place in the kingdom of Christ like those who are
fortunate enough to be allowed to reign with Him.
But the unfaithful believer will not lose his salvation."
p. 93
"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer
for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his
salvation is not in jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful."
p.93
"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will
retain their salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.
On the contrary, Jesus warned believers that those who
were workers of iniquity (lawlessness) would be rejected
on judgement day:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord,
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day,
Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?
and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them,
I NEVER KNEW YOU:
DEPART FROM ME, YE THAT WORK INIQUITY" Matt 7:21-23 (KJV)
HK
Quotes taken from: "Eternal Security" by Charles Stanley
Oliver Nelson Press, A division of Thomas Nelson Publishers.
Ok Harold, this is gone too far... I totally respect Charles Stanley, John MacArthur and the like.. Please out of respect for those men DO NOT gossip or talk down about them. You are treading on a fine line and dangerous ground when you start making judgemental comments on God's elect.. Who are you to do that? That is brazen and wrong and now your are in sin...because gossip is a sin.. Is it not? You are talking about someone behind their back...
That doesn't sound good for those who bear no fruit. And then (below) he makes clear that one must remain in him and obey his commands. One must 'stay in the Lord'. Logically, in order to stay in, one must already be in. So, he is talking to people who have been saved, yet he talks about the possibility of getting trimmed off if there is no fruit, or if they do not stay in the Lord. "remain in me, and I will remain in you". Unless I am mistaken, that means the same as "if you do not remain in me, I will not remain in you".
Actually this is a stern warning from Jesus to those who profess to be Christians but have not been regenerated. Jesus is making it very clear to those hypocrites what a saved person looks like. A true believer will stop practicing sin.
This is the judgment of all those who were never saved.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The calling of God is arbitrary and sovereign. He calls whomever he wills and not all are called. However once called God provides grace that the man may be able to choose.
I will let him explain himself because I do not know what he met. As far as me being a fan of Mike...I am a fellow believer along with Mike, he is my brother Christygirl along with many others here.
