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Here and now for all to see I confess to you I was once a Universalist. No, I did not have the nice fancy name or the terms, but I had the thoughts. I used terms like organized religon and divine love. I failed to note obvious contradictions in religous systems, because I failed to place them under serious examination. I did not understand that it is not the similarities to Buddhism, Shinto, and the five pillars of Islam, but the difference that defines my book. Like many I mocked the Bible as myth and fairy tales, yet claimed enlightenment in myself. I intermixed democracy and christianity like a spider's web. Oh how easy it is to fail in these thoughts and how much more challenging it is to know Christ!
Thank The Lord God Jesus Christ for revealing Truth to me and removing such false ideas from my life! This is my confession.
First I would give you a quote from David Wells and the legacy of Enlightenment that bears down on Christians. It is the shift from modernity to post-modernity. It was the root of my sins.
"It is not that the elements of the evangelical creeds have vanished, they have not. The fact that they are professed, however does not necessarily mean that the structure of the historic Protestant faith is still intact. The reason, quite simply, is that while these items of belief are professed, they are being removed from the center of evangelical life where they defined what life was, and they are now being relegated to the periphery where their power to define what evangelical life should be is lost. It is evangelicial practice rather than evangelical profession that reveals the change."
Consider this Christians. As a direct result of this it is the ideas of divine judgement and hell that have been removed, while more suitable easy to digest things like divine love are inserted. While we have taught the love of Christ as we should, we have failed to teach the Holyness of God which gave us the need for Christ. Instead of handing out a Bible we hand out little books of the New Testament. It has been going on for years. Is it any wonder why you now contend with such things as divine love. It was and still is a critical error that we as Christians created.
From my root in sin the tree trunk of my life sprouted. What I list below sums up my life before Christ and many others not in Christeven know. Consider this quote from Karl Marx.
"He who controls the definitions controls the movement."
This country is moving headlong into socialism. We no longed want to be responsible for what we are, but we want others to be responsible for us. Our government, our political parties, and our very communities are based more on socialism then The Lord God Jesus Christ. And thus we have a view that becomes increasingly popular, but farther from the truth. Below are some key points to this movement.
Human nature: I truly believed in the goodness of man and held he was to good for God to damn. This is where it all begins. The belief in ourself over the belief of God. Some would contend this not to be true, but find one scripture that confirms man is good. You can misquote one, but that does not make it anymore true.
Pluralistic culture: This can be traced to placing democracy above God. When Ronald Reagen stood at the Berlin Wall and called on Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to tear down the wall his very speech exhaulted democracy. From that point we have had more wars over democracy than anything else. Our democracy based on moral order than began a rapid decay into all being equal and that no truth is better than an another. In essence Postmodernism. Now we have many who haved moved from Christocentrism to Theocentrism. Now we have Christians who claim Christ in a weak and unknowing way or not at all, and then believe a Holy God can reconcile anything because it would be evil of him not to. This was by far one of my greatest sins.
Lack of Biblical authority: This speaks for itself. In todays modern information systems, data is shared at a faster rate everyday. In essence you have people who speak on what they do not know. One of the most common excuses I used as many do is, "I moved beyond what I learned in sunday school." As if Sunday School was the culmination of anything in the Bible. Then off that very basis a house is built with a foundation in sand. Then when the waters come how will it stand?
The Vastness of the Missionary Task: Did you know that in 1980 it was estimated that 98.5% of the world had the Bible in hand or could readily access it. This before the modern internet as we know it. How ironic considering this began the Reagan era and the final push of democracy over the world. People see the world as to big for all to hear the word and thus conclude that it can not be done. They can not accept God has a plan such as Christianity and do so on the basis of it not being fair to man.
Then as my tree of deceit was firm I spread my branches and all the wordly little birds took shelter in my deceit. They accepted scripture as myth just as I did, thay wanted all to be reconciled on the goodness of man as I did, they misquoted scripture as I did. The list goes on and on.
Yet then truth came to me in waves of which I can only give a few short statements. For these i will call upon Ezekiel and Isaiah. Notice many call it myth, but this is God talking to the very Jews many condemn in their idea of divine love.
Let us look below to Ezekiel 14 first. Here it is the Jews who are under judgement and Christians I give you a parallel in this. As much as it is a encouragement to Ezekiel in impending judgement it is to be one to you also.
22 "Yet behold, there shall be left in it a remnant who will be brought out, both sons and daughters; surely they will come out to you, and you will see their ways and their doings. Then you will be comforted concerning disaster that I have brought upon Jerusalem, all that I have brought upon it.
23 "And they will comfort you when you see their ways and their doings; and you shall know that I have done nothing without cause that I have done it," says the Lord God.
Or even to Isaiah 57. Again speaking to Jews, but Christians notice the parallel. One must be contrite first. What does it mean to be contrite? Can one be humble claiming divine love and not be contrite as to need a Saviour in The Lord God Jesus Christ? Notice the end as well. Will there be indeed peace for the wicked?
15 For this says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16 For I will not contend forever no will I always be angry; for the spirit would fail before Me, and the souls which I have made.
17 For the iniquity of his covetousness I was angry and struck him; I hid and was angry, and he went on backsliding in his heart.
18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him; I will also lead him, and restore comforts to him and to his mourners.
19 "I create the fruit of the lips: peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near," says the Lord, "And I will heal him."
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 "There is no peace," says my God, "for the wicked."
This is what I found in Jesus Christ. Of course I study the New Testament, but to understand Him I must understand his holiness. Are not the words above of a Holy God?
Yet let us look a bit deeper into the love of man under Universalism. I will include some scripture on these points.
First it removes Inspiration from scripture. It declares scripture to be a myth in some areas, but then uses it to justify their view. If scripture is divine inspired than all of it must be true, but if scripture is not divinely inspired than none of it is true. A working light bulb can not be on if the switch is off or in reverse off if the switch is on. You either accept on or the other. To do anything less is to bring it down to man and then you judge yourself as true. (2 Tim 3: 16-17; 2 Peter 1:29)
Second it elevates Love to such a level that it removes wrath and judgement. It makes them virtually disappear as if God could not be holy in having them. (1 Peter 1:16)
Third it can not reason an Antimony. This comes in the words Transcendence and Immanence. God is transcendent in that He is above, beyond, outside, all that He has made. There is a distinction between the Creator and His creatures. His creation in fact is not God.
Yet, He is also Immanent. He is omnipresent in that he is inside and outside of all his creation. He is the source of power and beauty and none can exist with Him.
In short if you accept one or the other you are more a deist or pantheistic. It is not Christian. It fails to reason the Antimony of our faith that both are need truths that hold each other together, yet can not contradict each other. Here are a few other antimonies to consider. Most Christians don't even realize this and even today I think on it.
God is 3 and God is 1
Jesus is both God and man
God is omnipotent, yet created man with free will.
These three basic reasons enough are sins I have commited in my path towards Universalism. I was not a church goer or even a Bible reader. I felt that the sum of my belief in God started with what I learned in Sunday School and spread out from there with my own knowledge or truth. How wrong I was! Once I began truly studying scripture and trusting in Christ things began to change. While it may not seem it, this is my confession to you. I was once Universal, but now I am of The Lord God Jesus Christ. I know scripture is Divinely Inspired. I was contrite and repented in sorrow of my sins. Only then did He place His Holy Spirit upon me and how great it is! Yet, in parting let me ask you questions I asked myself before I became a Christian. Consider these things carefully. They are not eay questions to be quickly skimmed over.
If Universalism is right, why witness of repentance and faith in Christ? Even Christians wont need him.
If Universalism is right, why have missions to spread the word of Christ? If Christians dont need him, why even spread the gospel, the very good news of Christ. No one will need him.
If Universalism is right, why did Jesus Christ speak more on hell than love? Count out the verses there are more on hell then love.
If Universalism is right, why does Matthew 7: 13-14 and Matthew 25:46 say not all will go to Heaven? Or why does Matthew 25:41 speak of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. As someone so eloquently pointed out these are red words, which means Christ spoke them. How could they be denied?
If Universalism is right, what is the second death? Revelation 2:11 calls it a hurt, but then we go to Revelation 20:14 where Death and Hades are cast into a lake of fire. It is literally called the second death.
Do not be so quick to use the words myth and fairy tale. If you do you are not Christian. Approach The Lord God Jesus Christ with a contrite spirit and a humble heart. Profess the sorrow of your sins. The time is coming. Each second of the day that ticks by is a step closer to his return. Do not be left behind as goats when the Sheperd comes. He will take His sheep, but the goats will be the food of wolves. Consider Christianity for what it is, the very difference of Jesus Christ, not it's similarity to man. Anyone can claim a god, but only Christians can claim The Lord God Jesus Christ fully through which Christians receive the Holy Spirit, the very breath of God and His scriptures, His very Word!
May The Lord God Jesus Christ find you in Truth.
It doesn't appear to me that you were a Christian Universalist because it doesn't sound like the same scriptural understanding of universalism comprised your universalism beliefs. Sounds like you may have been under that form of universalism that many of the anti-universalists THINK universalists embrace which is one where you can be saved no matter if continue in sin or not.
I suppose you was a kind unitarian universalist, no biblicial universalist?
If you think biblical universalism is a modern invention you are in error, everlasting torment became church doctrine about 500 years after the New Testament was written and was never officially condemned before, though some church fathers rejected this view personally. Some ecomenic concils were lead by outspoken universalists for example Saint Gregory of Nyssa.
Quote:
First it removes Inspiration from scripture. It declares scripture to be a myth in some areas, but then uses it to justify their view.
Biblical universalists don't do that, if you say "hell" is a myth and a mistranslation you don't remove from scripture if you can scripturally defend this claim - sola scriptura
Quote:
If Universalism is right, why did Jesus Christ speak more on hell than love? Count out the verses there are more on hell then love.
this statement is either an outright lie or blatant ignorance
Valley of Hinnom (geenna) occurs 12x in the NT (mistranslated "hell")
netherworld (adês) occurs 10x in the NT (mistranslated "hell")
ouranos (heaven/sky) occurs 273x in the NT
agapaô (to love) occurs 143x in the NT
agapê (love) occurs 116x in the NT
Probably the reason why you are sharing is to give me an understanding as to why you believe the way you believe and I appreciate the explanation and question, however consider this.
Just forget about the burning fire or the hell that you are talking about.
I don't mean to be harsh here Raelyn, but is that what you do? Do you just try to forget about the burning hell for unbelievers? Will you be able to forget for eternity all those you used to love that are now burning forever? That is madness.
He wasn't destined to hell but had a choice like everyone else. It is just that Jesus knew he would do that because Jesus was God and knows everything. Oh boy hopefully those on the forum that don't believe in the Diety of God will be on this one now.
Once again my relationship has no name.. I am just a Believer of Christ. I know nothing about a Calvinist but it is apparent that you do? And no I don't feel sorry for Judas..
Judas was doomed to destruction. He was destined to do it, as part of God's plan to sacrifice his son, the lamb Jesus, for the world. I feel sorry for Judas. What if you were him?
BTW Calvinists believe that God predestines most of mankind to hell by not choosing them for salvation. It is a very sad belief system, I am glad you are not involved in that.
You know, for once, it would be nice to hear a calvinist actually describe Christian Universalism with a shred of accuracy the next time they start in on it.
Universalism of any kind is absolutely not biblical. Just because most Christians believe in annhilation or eternal torment there is the arguement of "Would you let your brother, sister,mother etc,etc... burn in hell forever"? Or universalists use the arguement that translations are wrong. And my personal favorite, that we no longer need the 10 commandments of God!! All of these arguements are on the basis that man has more power than God. First of all, we cannot compare our love for a family member to God's love for us. Because we are only men (or women) we cannot even fathom what his love is like. So comparing his love to ours in itself is just not acceptable. Because then we are bringing God down to mans level. Second, by claiming biblical translations are wrong is basically claiming that God does not have the power to keep his word intact. And last, the ten commandments. We can all agree that God is all-knowing, and all-powerful (even universalists). All christians!!! So, why even bother to write the commandments if it was impossible to follow them. Some say that our Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the ten commandments for us. That is not scriptural!! Nowhere in the bible does it say that he did that FOR US !! Of course it does say............
1 Peter 2:21"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered FOR US , leaving us an EXAMPLE, that ye should FOLLOW HIS STEPS
If it is impossible, then we cannot follow in Jesus steps. That would make God a liar. I highly doubt that is the case!! And what did Jesus do that we should follow in his steps??? The next verse is pretty clear!!!
22. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
Now, for wether or not we need to obey the commandments, let us take a look at the book of James chapter 2
14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Can faith save him????? let's continue.................................
15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
What does it profit to have faith that they will get much needed food if you do not put forth your works and give them food??? Yes, your faith may make you feel warm and filled, but what about the starving??? They are neither warm nor filled!!! Again we continue..................................
17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my FAITH BY MY WORKS. 19.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble. 20.But will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works was made perfect?
Belief is not enough!!! Even the devils believe. But also tremble. Faith is made perfect through your works!!!! No interpratation needed!!! Even our Lord Jesus Christ said.....
Revelation 22 12. And behold, I come quickly; and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING HIS WORKshall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do HIS(God's) commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I can only pray that more universalists will turn away from this evil Doctrine. God has definately given you the wisdom to see the truth Aschultz!!! Keep spreading God's truth!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
It is truly ALMOST2L8
Last edited by ALMOST2L8; 01-22-2010 at 09:49 AM..
It is apparent through the reading of many of these posts that there is no clear belief in the Universalist's system or religion because one says one thing and the other says another. You guys really need to create another book and title it "The Truth According to Universalists".
I am not trying to be sarcastic but with all honestly it is the most confusing and contradicting belief that I have ever heard of
And please...no more explanations. I really have heard enough. I am not going to through out pearls any longer.
This post really is funny.
Look at all the different non-universalist Christians denominations out there and how they can't agree on biblical matters. Even the Baptists can't agree withing their own ranks!
The Catholics don't agree with the Protestants, the Catholics don't agree with other Catholics, the Protestants don't agree with other protestants.
You guys really need to create another book and title it "The Truth According to Protestants".
P.S. it is "throw out pearls" not "through out pearls." Your pearls are man-made. Ours are all natural.
Second, by claiming biblical translations are wrong is basically claiming that God does not have the power to keep his word intact.
I will show you the folly of this argument!
Do you believe the apocryphal writings to be inspired?
If yes, the protestant bibles omit them and have therefore removed a great amount of inspired writings from the bible.
If no, they were in use for hundreds of years and are still used by the Catholic church, the greatest Christian denomination, they have added to the bible and defend doctrines like purgatory (2nd Maccabees) with these writings.
So either have great amount of scriptures been removed or added to the bible, this is a matter of fact, now when God allowed that to happen, why should He not allowed mistranslations to happen?
If you don't believe me, I can prove you the mistranslations from the Greek
Revelation 22 12. And behold, I come quickly; and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING HIS WORKshall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
even this statement refutes the idea of endless torment, not all men have sinned in the same degree, but they are judged according to their works, what would be the point if punishment was endless? - every man would suffer the same penalty, no matter what he would have done - but the bible suggests otherwise.
Jesus is the Omega, you have made death and hell the Omega.
Universalism of any kind is absolutely not biblical. Just because most Christians believe in annhilation or eternal torment there is the arguement of "Would you let your brother, sister,mother etc,etc... burn in hell forever"? Or universalists use the arguement that translations are wrong. And my personal favorite, that we no longer need the 10 commandments of God!! All of these arguements are on the basis that man has more power than God. First of all, we cannot compare our love for a family member to God's love for us. Because we are only men (or women) we cannot even fathom what his love is like. So comparing his love to ours in itself is just not acceptable. Because then we are bringing God down to mans level. Second, by claiming biblical translations are wrong is basically claiming that God does not have the power to keep his word intact. And last, the ten commandments. We can all agree that God is all-knowing, and all-powerful (even universalists). All christians!!! So, why even bother to write the commandments if it was impossible to follow them. Some say that our Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the ten commandments for us. That is not scriptural!! Nowhere in the bible does it say that he did that FOR US !! Of course it does say............
1 Peter 2:21"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered FOR US , leaving us an EXAMPLE, that ye should FOLLOW HIS STEPS
If it is impossible, then we cannot follow in Jesus steps. That would make God a liar. I highly doubt that is the case!! And what did Jesus do that we should follow in his steps??? The next verse is pretty clear!!!
22. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
Now, for wether or not we need to obey the commandments, let us take a look at the book of James chapter 2
14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Can faith save him????? let's continue.................................
15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
What does it profit to have faith that they will get much needed food if you do not put forth your works and give them food??? Yes, your faith may make you feel warm and filled, but what about the starving??? They are neither warm nor filled!!! Again we continue..................................
17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18. Yea, a man say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my FAITH BY MY WORKS. 19.Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble. 20.But will thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works was made perfect?
Belief is not enough!!! Even the devils believe. But also tremble. Faith is made perfect through your works!!!! No interpratation needed!!! Even our Lord Jesus Christ said.....
Revelation 22 12. And behold, I come quickly; and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING HIS WORKshall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do HIS(God's) commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
I can only pray that more universalists will turn away from this evil Doctrine. God has definately given you the wisdom to see the truth Aschultz!!! Keep spreading God's truth!!!
GOD BLESS!!!
It is truly ALMOST2L8
God's commandments are unchanging; I don't see why you say there is compromising - in fact, I believe that not just the acts but the very nature of man is enmity with God.
Do you believe the apocryphal writings to be inspired?
If yes, the protestant bibles omit them and have therefore removed a great amount of inspired writings from the bible.
If no, they were in use for hundreds of years and are still used by the Catholic church, the greatest Christian denomination, they have added to the bible and defend doctrines like purgatory (2nd Maccabees) with these writings.
So either have great amount of scriptures been removed or added to the bible, this is a matter of fact, now when God allowed that to happen, why should He not allowed mistranslations to happen?
If you don't believe me, I can prove you the mistranslations from the Greek
Revelation 22 12. And behold, I come quickly; and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING HIS WORKshall be. 13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
even this statement refutes the idea of endless torment, not all men have sinned in the same degree, but they are judged according to their works, what would be the point if punishment was endless? - every man would suffer the same penalty, no matter what he would have done - but the bible suggests otherwise.
Jesus is the Omega, you have made death and hell the Omega.
I see you left out the part about the commandments!! LOL. It says reward according to works!! Not judgement according to work. Also, I do not believe in burning forever......................... but rather burning until God sees the punishment fits the crimes. Then the soul dies or is destroyed. Also, even if there is a hell, God would be the one passing out the punishments. Jesus is God. Therefore, even with the concept of hell Jesus would still be the Omega!!
GOD BLESS!!!
ALMOST2L8
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