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Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable about how the Gentiles are to be
brought into Abraham's Bosom for a time as Paul states in a different
way in Romans 11 with the whole grafted in thing.
Lazarus = Gentiles
Rich Man = Jews
eeehhh...Abraham was a Gentile? How about Jesus himself? The prophets he talks about in the story? All Jews. Jesus said you should listen to prophets (Jews) unless you wanted to end up where the rich man was.
It is a parable of Hades, a temporary place of torment for the 'wicked' and paradise for the righteous, but of course Jesus emptied the good side, so now the righteous go directly to heaven these days.
The rich man represents the typical sinner who puts money, materialism, luxury and greed ahead of everything in his life and there is no place for faith. Jesus often talked about the rich and how hard it is for them to get to heaven, while Jesus hand picked the uneducated poor to be his disciples.
And in hell, the rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers about the dangers of ending up in hell, and Abraham simply told him that they need to listen to the truth from the prophets, and if they don't listen to the prophets, they wouldn't listen even if Lazarus woke from the dead and told them. Ironically Jesus did bring a man named Lazarus back from dead, and did everyone then listen? No, they did not, and to this day millions do not listen. They will end up where the rich man is.
No, you don't learn and grow in Hades, you suffer and are separated from God. But of course believers don't need to worry about that.
Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell (Hades/Sheol), where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
Jesus Christ himself visited the Spirit Prison during the time His body lay in the tomb. There He taught the wicked who had lived many years before He did. Do you think that after He taught them, He just turned and said, "It looks like you just had the misfortune of being born at the wrong time and in the wrong place. You may have actually believed the message of my gospel if you'd had the opportunity to do so during your life. Oh well, too bad for you..."? Or do you think that He gave those who heard Him the opportunity to accept Him then? There have been billions of people who have lived and died without ever knowing of Jesus Christ. Are you saying that God placed them here simply so that they could someday be His eternal firewood?
And again, I ask you why would God postpone the Final Judgment for years (in some cases thousands of years) after a person died? Do you think He's going to send the wicked to Hell and the righteous to Heaven and then, hundreds and hundreds of years after the person has been to where they're going to end up anyway, call them to stand before Him to be judged and then sent back to where they've been all along? Seriously, how much sense does that make?
I noticed we're talking about completely different things, as I agreed with everything you just said. I am saying that we reason to understand what God has said is truth. Of course we don't reason against truth; that's ridiculous.
Also, the logical fallacy has nothing to do with this at all. It's just a logical fallacy to present two choices and say it's one or the other when there is a middle ground. We reason to convince men to have faith. We reason with God so we can understand his truth.
Committing a logical fallacy mostly just shows that you haven't thought something through all the way (even if you have it gives that impression). So I just pointed it out so that you could avoid doing it again and therefore have a stronger argument.
I totally disagree. We do not even reason what God has said as the reasoning of men comes to multiple conclusions. That is why God does not call us to reason he calls us to faith. It is quite clear that there are tons of "reasons" on this forum by people who justify their own thoughts more than God's word. I really dont think you are understanding what I am saying.
In regards to your concept of a stronger arguement. I have no intrest in your views of middle ground nor your idea of thinking something thru. It is quite clear you will only accept what you want to accept. Do you think I am argueing? I can tell you I am not.
You stated things of faith were seen, not unseen. I clearly stated it was both and you didnt touch it.
You stated Job reasoned with God. I rejected it with another and scripture shows it to be true. Man does not reason with God.
The problem is you assume you have thought it thru. I in fact held many of your views quite some time ago. Then I thought them thru. This is what you fail to understand. I am not argueing, I am not debating, I am in Christ who is my God. You do not accept Christ is God, thus you can not accept what I am. This is your logical fallacy in full view. This is why you continue to think I need your help in debating or argueing when I in fact only need Christ.
Last edited by Aschultz73; 02-08-2010 at 12:04 AM..
And again, I ask you why would God postpone the Final Judgment for years (in some cases thousands of years) after a person died? Do you think He's going to send the wicked to Hell and the righteous to Heaven and then, hundreds and hundreds of years after the person has been to where they're going to end up anyway, call them to stand before Him to be judged and then sent back to where they've been all along? Seriously, how much sense does that make?
It may not make sense to you, but that is how it will happen. Everyone will be judged according to what they have done. Great men of God, like missionaries, who helped thousands find Jesus will receive their rewards, while the everyday believer will simply receive a place in Heaven. The unbelievers and true evil-doers will also be punished accordingly.
The 'prison' which you talk about, which is mentioned in 1 Peter 3 where Jesus (in spirit) made a proclamation is not Hades/Sheol, but the prison for fallen angels called Tartarus. It is separate from Hades. So, he did not make his proclamation to the dead unbelievers, but to fallen angels. Most likely he told them about their temporary release as described in Revelation. Some believe that he preached 'in spirit' aka 'through other people' to the people who are currently dead, but the preaching took place when they were still alive.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 02-08-2010 at 06:25 AM..
The results of this poll are interesting. First lets ignore the 100% votes for now, as many here believe in universal salvation, but I believe this is a statistical anomaly in this forum. I doubt you would get these same results in the "real world".
So that leaves a couple people voting 75-99%, and the rest in the 0-33% range. Why does everyone think so low? What about the so-called "many saved" verses?
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing manysons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Heb 11:12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
It seems people are ignoring these verses and focusing on the "narrow path to life, wide path to destruction" verse. The "wide path to destruction" isn't even talking about hell.
Lego i believe without doubt it's the same spirit that says "we have Abraham as our father" that would put a figure of 0 - 33% as an answer.
The modern day pharisee justify's itself and boasts in itself by saying "we believe what the bible says", i am 100% certain the pharisees and scribes did to!!!! but what good did it do for them, they totally missed God. So to boast that we believe the bible is futile.
Am i belittling the scriptures ? Of cause not .
The scripture says "There's a way that seems right to man that in the end leads to destruction" , the pharisees would never believe that verse could be referring to them (oh really)," how could that verse be referring to us ? we believe the bible we defend it by rejecting all who disagree with us ,and we can hebrew and greek it to death , what more proof do you need we are christians ?".
From what I have been taught and what I understand of the workings of God, you would have to be totally, completely, irreconcilably insane to not enter in to heaven. Currently, there is not one soul on earth or heaven (as much as I have been taught) that is that way. The only ones I know of who have been annhilated are Lucifer and his cohorts. Which would make a total of 3.
And, in the end, we either reside in the natural love heavens or the Divine Love heavens. Either way, hell (darkness) will no longer exist so all will be in heaven. I don't know what the futuree will bring but at this juncture in my own understanding, all will be saved. Who knows, maybe in a year or even 10 years, I could change my thinking.
The results of this poll are interesting. First lets ignore the 100% votes for now, as many here believe in universal salvation, but I believe this is a statistical anomaly in this forum. I doubt you would get these same results in the "real world".
So that leaves a couple people voting 75-99%, and the rest in the 0-33% range. Why does everyone think so low? What about the so-called "many saved" verses?
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing manysons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Heb 11:12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
It seems people are ignoring these verses and focusing on the "narrow path to life, wide path to destruction" verse. The "wide path to destruction" isn't even talking about hell.
Look at your verses like Heb 11:12 and you'll see the 'countless' refers only to the number of the decendentes, not to the people who are saved.
Lego i believe without doubt it's the same spirit that says "we have Abraham as our father" that would put a figure of 0 - 33% as an answer.
The modern day pharisee justify's itself and boasts in itself by saying "we believe what the bible says", i am 100% certain the pharisees and scribes did to!!!! but what good did it do for them, they totally missed God. So to boast that we believe the bible is futile.
Am i belittling the scriptures ? Of cause not .
The scripture says "There's a way that seems right to man that in the end leads to destruction" , the pharisees would never believe that verse could be referring to them (oh really)," how could that verse be referring to us ? we believe the bible we defend it by rejecting all who disagree with us ,and we can hebrew and greek it to death , what more proof do you need we are christians ?".
Only 33% of the world's population identify themselves as Christians, and many of those are "Christians in census only", which means they were born into a Christian family and that's the extent of their relationship with God. So, the 1-25% estimate is common sense.
Only 33% of the world's population identify themselves as Christians, and many of those are "Christians in census only", which means they were born into a Christian family and that's the extent of their relationship with God. So, the 1-25% estimate is common sense.
Yes, but the question is not what percentage of the world is christian , or what percentage of professing christians really are christians.
The question is "what percentage of people will be saved ?" .
I wonder if the Lord has read "Major religions ranked by size" ? , he must be well disappointed with the findings.
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