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I think you misinterpret v. 13. Paul is saying he was a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious in ignorant unbelief. When he believed, he obtained mercy.
Romans 3
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
I don't think I misinterpreted this quote from Paul:
"...but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
I think you misinterpreted it this way:
Paul is saying he was a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious in ignorant unbelief. When he believed, he obtained mercy.
Righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus is not equivalent to mercy or salvation.
No you said he believed and THEN was saved. right?
I am saying he was saved, then believed.
Acts 9 shows that Saul did not want to be saved.. But God did. God blinded him so that he could show his power by making him see again. Truly see.
God saved him. Then Paul believed. It is shown in all of Paul's writings that it is not of ourselves we are saved. If Saul had his way he would have continued to persecute. But God washed him clean with the holy spirit.
Paul says to Timothy, "Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief." (1 Tim 1:13)
He says he was shown mercy BECAUSE he did not believe. And we KNOW that he REJECTED the gospel and was not simply not told about it.
God's mercy was his blindness. Saul did not have a choice. Ananias didn't even want to go to Saul, But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." (Acts 9:15-16)
So how can you say that mercy DOESN'T come WITHOUT belief, when Paul shows that it was BECAUSE of his unbelief?
I don't think I misinterpreted this quote from Paul:
"...but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
What is "it"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Hope for Tomorrow
I think you misinterpreted it this way:
Paul is saying he was a blasphemer, persecutor, and injurious in ignorant unbelief. When he believed, he obtained mercy.
Righteousness that comes through faith in Jesus is not equivalent to mercy or salvation.
What's the difference between righteousness & salvation?
Romans 10
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Finn, its not up to us to save mankind. Christ already did that, my friend. Christ died on the cross for mankind. It is finished. Salvation is a COMPLETE work of God.
Actually it is up to us to spread the Gospel. You have misunderstood the meaning of "it is finished". No, obviosusly we cannot save people, but we can bring the horse to the water, but teaching the Gospel and bringing people to the word, so that Christ can save them.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Well, not only do you not worry about spreading the Gospel, you also encourage others to not "worry" about faith.
I didn't say that at all. Now that I understand the Good News, I'd love to let others know, unlike before when I couldn't "be ready to give an answer to the hope that was within me." I tried to witness to a stranger once and he said, "I love my family. I love animals. I love everything about nature. Sometimes I sleep outside just to admire the beauty of the world. I'm a good man that has never hurt anyone, but I can't worship a God that would burn human beings forever." He said if I could explain that to him that he would consider being a Christian. I hum-hawed around and then pulled out my pastor's business card and asked him to call him and ask him. I doubt he did that, and if so, I doubt my pastor had an answer that made this man decide to accept the Good News because his lack of faith in our God was due to his concern for all people and not just himself.
I also remember asking the Mother of the little Hindu boy if she believed in God. She enthusiastically said, "Yes!" and was so thankful He gave her her son back. I asked her if she believed in Jesus and she said, "No. We believe in the same God as you do, but just not Jesus." I so wanted to spread the "gospel" and warn her that she was on a path to hell, but I didn't know what to say or how to say it. I could have said, "The good news is that if you change everything you've been taught and believe in Jesus, you get to go to heaven. The bad news is that if you don't you'll burn forever, along with every Hindu you've ever known." My newfound faith in the true and living God would have allowed me to really spread the Gospel and say, "The good news is that even though you are in disbelief because of the way you were raised, God still loves you and He still sent his Son to die for you and every single person you've ever known. Jesus died on the cross to pay for the sins of all humanity. God's Son's sacrifice means that you are forgiven. It is finished."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
How am I leading someone to hell if I never even met him/her? Think about it.
You said to me in the previous post, "Even worse, not only will they burn, but you will have to answer to God for leading them there." So, I was saying that by you not warning people about hell that you were leading them there.
Regarding the part where you said, ".....if I never even met him/her," I didn't say you should warn people you never met. What I said was, "If you truly believe what you say, I challenge you to warn every single person you talk to for the rest of your life, or at least try it for a day or so. I assume if they were standing too close to a fire you'd warn them to step away. If you don't warn every single person (I just didn't add "you talk to" here), then you will have to answer to God for leading them to hell." So we do agree on that. I don't think you should have a guilty conscious for not warning those you've never met.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
In the other hand, if I spent my time trying to convince everyone that it is not necessary to believe in order to be saved, then I would have to answer to God for spreading false doctrine.
I don't spend my time trying to convince everyone that it's not necessary to believe. I'm just participating in this discussion to say that I believe God will eventually save all his creation and not burn people's flesh forever. If someone doesn't believe, their lives on earth will be much harder and there will be just judgment, but that can be dealt with on another thread and by someone who understands those scriptures more than me.
Quote:
No, obviously I cannot personally grant salvation (and I am sure you knew that was not what I meant) but I can help people come closer to God so they can ask to be saved through Him.
Yes, I knew that's not what you meant so I probably should have let that go.
I don't spend my time trying to convince everyone that it's not necessary to believe. I'm just participating in this discussion to say that I believe God will eventually save all his creation and not burn people's flesh forever. If someone doesn't believe, their lives on earth will be much harder and there will be just judgment, but that can be dealt with on another thread and by someone who understands those scriptures more than me.
Yes, I knew that's not what you meant so I probably should have let that go.
We may not agree with out views but I'll give you this much: you have a way of presenting your point of view in a reasonable and respectful fashion. Good for you.
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