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Originally Posted by katjonjj
Actually yes it does call for two thrones.....but using the same rule of greek grammar it is two people being talked about because the article is present before each subject.
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You are correct, but is this denoting two thrones? No it isn't. I don't follow your line of reasoning here. This is the same throne, with two entities in it, God the Father, and God the Son.
Exactly...so how do you reconcile God and Christ being both cohesively one temple?
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Rev. 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and [throne] of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.
The grammatical rule in Greek for determining whether a single thing or person is meant, or different things or persons is meant, when "and" appears, is called the "Granville Sharp rule." The basic rule is as follows: "If two nouns of the same case are connected by a "kai" (and) and the article (the) is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first." {Curtis Vaughn, and Virtus Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament" (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1979), p. 83.}" So you can see in Rev. 21 and 22 that this rule applies and therefore there are two thrones and two separate people are the temple.
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It appears that you are having trouble here with the article KAI. They both refer to different entities, yes, that is established, as it is penned, but the throne is one and the same, as the text states. There is only one THRONOS, and two entities. The article KAI is attached to the noun, Lamb and God, not the throne, or else John would have simply penned:
καὶ πᾶν κατάθεμα οὐκ ἔσται ἔτι καὶ ὁ θρόνος τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ
θρόνος τοῦ ἀρνίου ἐν αὐτῇ ἔσται καὶ οἱ δοῦλοι αὐτοῦ λατρεύσουσιν αὐτῷ
But the text doesn't say this. Again, how do you reconcile that God and the Lamb both cohesively are the SINGULAR temple?
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It's a quote from another scripture where someone other than God was speaking.... The part you refer to is describing the THRONE. not the son....
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So God is speaking to the throne...c'mon Kat...use your better sense here.
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Phil. 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name...
I agree God gave him authority, just as God took that authority back so God is all in all... You seem to think that Christ retains this authority... Where do you see that?
1 Cor. 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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Does this imply that Christ has relieved the throne?
Ephesians 1:20-23 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world , but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
2 Tim 1:10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Death was the last enemy, and the epistles state here that it had already been accomplished, prior to the Parousia.
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Now, notice the end of verse 8. "But now we do not yet see all things put under him." The word "see" is the Greek word horao. This speaks of the visible impression our eyes passively receive from objects. They (first century believers) didn't see everything subject to Him, because the AD 70 judgment on Jerusalem had not yet occurred. Christ's enemy, Judaism, was still very much active at the time of the writing.
We must understand that the enemies of Christ, that were going to "soon" (at the time of the writing) be in subjection to him, were of the nation Israel. Jesus, in the parable in Luke speaking of the Jewish nation, said:
Luke 19:27 But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.'
The authority of Jesus was then challenged by those Jewish leaders. Jesus continued by speaking to them about the "Parables of the Tenants" in which he told them:
Luke 20:18 Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.
Luke continued:
Luke 20:19 And the chief priests and the scribes that very hour sought to lay hands on Him, but they feared the people; for they knew He had spoken this parable against them.
Jesus had used many of the parables as a warning to the Jewish leaders, but due to their vagueness, the Jewish leaders had not been able to amass enough resistance against Jesus to get him killed. Early in his ministry, the Jewish leaders wondered if the parables were spoken against them. During the middle of the ministry of Jesus, His parables became clearer, and they thought that He was referring to them. However, in the last week of his ministry, He spoke the parables more plainly, and they knew Jesus was talking about them. They were enraged and determined that Jesus would be killed. These enemies of Christ would themselves, within the next five years of the writing of this letter, be destroyed in AD 70. Christ came in judgment, and the nation of Israel was destroyed.
With the destruction of Israel, the Old Covenant was fulfilled, and death was destroyed.
1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
The Old Covenant was a ministry of death.
Even though the writer of Hebrews did not "see" everything destroyed, doesn't imply that it wasn't defeated, but only until this was applied in the visual sense, that it was completed in Heaven, but not here visually on earth.
The writer stresses the utter superiority and uniqueness of Jesus over angels, because angels had played a crucial role in mediating the word of God in the Old Testament (Hebrews 2:2). He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact representation of God's nature. He is God the Son (Hebrews 1:8); and, as such, angels worship him (Hebrews 1:6).
Hosea 13's context and Isaiah 25's context are clearly referring to Israel in this passage of 1 Cor 15:24. I understand, then, when reading this chapter, that Israel is simply such a given that it does not need to be spelled out. It’s like, when I say to my wife, “how much gas does the car have?” She does not say, “oh, you mean the 2009 Seabring with GPS dash unit and XM radio”
See, that’s a given. “Car” stands for all of that. We both know it. We don’t have to spell it out. The same is going on here. Both Paul and his opponents knew WHAT was being denied and WHO “dead ones” stood for. This is why he quotes the prophets. Israel’s prophets. This is why he quotes Psalm 110 – a psalm concerning Israel’s Lord and kingdom – that’s the context. The Dea Ones...who weren't resurrected yet. Israel’s prophesied King, Christ, would rule over his enemies, and His people, Israel, would also rule over the nations, the Gentiles, from Jerusalem in the Land of Israel, when God installed His King, and restored the Land.
Israel would be restored, exalted: raised from the dead. Thus, death defeated. Christ already defeated death at the cross and resurrection, but the context of 1 Cor 15 is about Israel's dead ones.
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You, For Your judgments have been manifested.
John 5:23
that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
The worship of Christ is necessary for God's glory. In order to be part of the Christian faith, this is a prerequisite.
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Do you not believe he has done that yet? So who are you supposed to worship as God? God or the one who is made subject to God? God is the one who gave the son everything and then made the son subject to him. God is all in all not the son. Jesus is the name of a human. Christ is the title given to the human..
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Eph 1:23 see above. Parousia...indwelling and presence of Christ....remember:
Eph 5:21 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Parousia.
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We are also describes as temples of the living God.. so what say you about that? Are we then God because the Lamb is the temple and you have concluded that because of that the Lamb is God?
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Spin doctor based on what? You are brighter than this.....as I assume you are brighter than this for me to address the rest of your post.
Paul got angry and upset, so do I and many others of the faith. Forgive me.
Like I have said before, you are seeking to be convinced by the reasonings of mankind, when in fact you should be asking all these questions to the one you give glory to. God. Ask Him to show you the truth about His Son.
Or better yet, Ask Christ Himself.
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God handed over his own kingdom to himself? WE ARE THE KINGDOM!
Revelation 1:6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
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You mean this:
And hath made us
kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Why are you rewriting scripture?
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